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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:33 am Post subject: Parents want gay penguin book out of school |
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SHILOH, Ill. -- A picture book about two male penguins raising a baby penguin is getting a chilly reception among some parents in this village who worry about the book's availability to elementary students - and the reluctance of administrators to restrict access to it.
The concerns are the latest involving "And Tango Makes Three," the illustrated children's book based on a true story of two male penguins - Roy and Silo - in New York City's Central Park Zoo who adopted a fertilized egg and raised the chick as their own.
Complaining about the book's homosexual undertones, some parents of Shiloh Elementary School students believe the book - available to be checked out of the school's library in this 11,000-resident town 20 miles east of St. Louis - tackles topics their young children aren't ready to handle.
http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2006/11/17/news/doc455cf31678656033433978.txt
[Can one argue that a book dealing with sexuality might not be appropriate for young children? Well, it does talk about male to male love without talking about engaging in a sexual act, so one can argue this in more than one way.]
Their request: Move the book to the library's regular shelves and restrict it to a section for mature issues, perhaps even requiring parental permission before their child can check it out. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Can one argue that a book dealing with sexuality might not be appropriate for young children? Well, it does talk about male to male love without talking about engaging in a sexual act, so one can argue this in more than one way. |
Some are arguing much more than this, claiming there is a clearly-emerging antipathy towards heterosexuality in the academy and elsewhere...
http://www.amazon.com/Heterophobia-Sexual-Harassment-Future-Feminism/dp/0847689883/sr=8-2/qid=1163756149/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/102-7568025-4982518?ie=UTF8&s=books
Indeed, I recently finished Deborah Elliston's critique of Gilbert Herdt in her "Erotic Anthopology: 'Ritualized Homosexuality' in Melanesia and Beyond."
Elliston takes issue with Herdt's characterization that Melanesian boys' initiation rites are ritualized homosexuality. (Let us be exactly clear what we are discussing here: younger, coming-of-age boys are paired with an older, but not-yet-married males for a period of ten to fifteen years. They are required to felate them daily. Those who resist are forced.)
Elliston says Herdt's use of the word "homosexuality" tells us more about a homophobic academy than about what these rites actually mean to those who participate in them. Westerners should not apply Western meaning to non-Western peoples and cultures; and what looks "erotic," "homosexual," and esp. problematic, "deviant," to Westerners may not necessarily be "erotic," "homosexual," or "deviant" to others.
She raises excellent points. However, then she gets to what I see as her agenda: "Western gender ideology fortifies gender distinctions with a biological paradigm, one that is bolstered by the prestige of science, informed by a Western folk model of the concreteness of biological differences, and constructed to render the boundary between 'the sexes' absolute..." That is, she and her coreligionists want this boundary gone.
So make no mistake about why books like the penguin one you cite create excitement and controversy. People instinctively know what is at stake here; and childrens' minds have always been a primary battleground for such things as this. It is not about tolerance and equality anymore; it is about who defines what is "normal" for everyone and how we should all act. Or, as Elliston concludes about the Melanesian rites: "[This] must entail challenging the 'naturalness' of heterosexual practice itself."
A jazz musician I admire once cautioned something like this: If you are going to defend "tradition," you had better take a good, long look at what it is that you are defending and decide if it is worth defending in the first place.
I would modify that, so that we have two warnings together (his and mine): If you are going to attack "tradition," you had better take a good, long look at where it is you are suggesting that we ultimately go and decide if that is somewhere everyone really wants to be. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| It is not about tolerance and equality anymore; it is about who defines what is "normal" for everyone and how we should all act. |
I think you are going too far here. While there are doubtless people out there who wish the world would change into the ancient Spartan system of turning over the 12 year olds to the horny 20 year olds, I see no reason to assume that this is what 'everyone' in the gay community wants.
There are no grounds for extending the fantasies of a minority to the agenda of a majority.
Almost certainly, the author of the penguin book was just trying to create a 'role model' for the kids who find themselves in that situation.
Even more, so what if it happened? The societies who do/did have this system don't seem to have had a problem with ultimate reproduction. (If they did, it was because of economic factors, not because once you've screwed around with Randy you will always lose interest in Mandy.) |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:13 am Post subject: |
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I think that kind of thing is downright dangerous for children. It could encourage them to become homosexuals or even
maybe ..................penguins!!! |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
It could encourage them to become homosexuals or even
maybe ..................penguins!!! |
I do take your point. As a parent, I might be more than a little disgruntled if my kid decided to grow a coat of black feathers and head out to sea in the South Atlantic. There are limits to my tolerance. |
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Porter_Goss
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Location: The Wrong Side of Right
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:11 am Post subject: |
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Personally, I'd rather have my kids reading material
that is based on factual events, glorifies family values,
and is nicely illustrated... you know, as opposed to some
gory tale about a delusional hippy who was beat and
nailed to a cross. Have you people read this thing?
My copy doesn't even have pictures.
EDIT: Why is the formating shite? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| Porter_Goss wrote: |
Personally, I'd rather have my kids reading material
that is based on factual events, glorifies family values,
and is nicely illustrated... you know, as opposed to some
gory tale about a delusional hippy who was beat and
nailed to a cross. Have you people read this thing?
My copy doesn't even have pictures.
EDIT: Why is the formating *beep*? |
You are talking about Yeshua/Issos/Jesus? Yeshua Mashiha was an Israelite preaching spiritual revolution, sacrificing himself for a larger goal, just as Ghandi and Buddha abandoned comfort for enlightenment.
The goal of the penguin book is to teach children that homosexuality is acceptable rather than abominable. One could object to teaching concepts of sexuality at a young age whether it is of a hetero of homosexual nature.
Also, if a penguin is on only with a male penguin, and that is the only company, that would encourage such a behaviour, but it would not mean that it is acceptable behaviour among penguins. Prisoners confronted with a situation where they cannot have the company of females, will engaging in behaviour that is not heterosexual. So, in the case, of the prisoners and the penguins, it would not be normal preferred behaviour for them. So there is, perhaps, a problem with that book. The book had a certain agenda. We frown upon some in the Middle East using their kids for ideological purposes, is this being done in this case?
Now if you were arguing that someone was homosexual from the beginning, or that a male and another male got married, then it could be argued as normal behaviour between homosexuals. The question is should children be dealing with sexuality as such a young age? It is one thing for us, as adults, to tackle these subjects or adolescents. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| to tackle these subjects or adolescents |
Quite frankly, I don't think adults should be tackling adolescents. It is just not right. |
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Porter_Goss
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Location: The Wrong Side of Right
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
One could object to teaching concepts
of sexuality at a young age whether it is of a hetero
of homosexual nature. |
Does your copy illustrate sexual acts between
two consenting adult penguins? For all we know the
two male penguins are brothers, would the fact that
they are caring for offspring make them a gay couple?
| Adventurer wrote: |
Prisoners confronted with a situation where they cannot have
the company of females, will engaging in behaviour that is not heterosexual. |
I've never been to the clink, but I'm fairly certain
prison sex is about dominance, rather than
sexual orientation.
| Adventurer wrote: |
So, in the case, of the prisoners and the penguins,
it would not be normal preferred behaviour for them.
So there is, perhaps, a problem with that book. |
Make sure you stretch before such logical leaps
in the future, you don't want to hurt yourself.
| Adventurer wrote: |
The question is should children be dealing with
sexuality as such a young age? |
No... and they aren't by reading this book.
EDIT: F-ing formatting. |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: |
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I swear, there is just no limit to how funny you damned straight people can be. I mean it, y'all are a laugh a mile. You're as funny as Christians used to be, just assuming that everyone was one and anyone who wasn't had something seriously wrong with them that needed to be, well, if not fixed, then certainly guarded against or lamented.
Oh, but don't let me stop you, you with your objective certitudes about purely cultural constructions. Do carry on. I mean it, this sh!t is a laugh riot. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| daskalos wrote: |
I swear, there is just no limit to how funny you damned straight people can be. I mean it, y'all are a laugh a mile. You're as funny as Christians used to be, just assuming that everyone was one and anyone who wasn't had something seriously wrong with them that needed to be, well, if not fixed, then certainly guarded against or lamented.
Oh, but don't let me stop you, you with your objective certitudes about purely cultural constructions. Do carry on. I mean it, this *beep* is a laugh riot. |
Don't lump me in with that lot. That's not how I feel about homosexuality at all. It doesn't scare me, or bother me, or worry me in the slightest in any way. Live and let live I say. And bring on the house music. Gays are the best people in the world to party with. And I know what I'm talking about, as a heavy duty party animal... |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: |
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The more i hear about America, the more i believe that America is shifting into what they are trying to fight.
BAN BOOKS
BAN SCIENCE
etc ...
Okay over exaggeration SORRY
please do not react to my post, i am just very woried about certain things America does. |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| Don't lump me in with that lot. That's not how I feel about homosexuality at all. It doesn't scare me, or bother me, or worry me in the slightest in any way. Live and let live I say. And bring on the house music. Gays are the best people in the world to party with. And I know what I'm talking about, as a heavy duty party animal... |
Okay okay okay ... you're not as damned funny as most straight people can be.
Seriously, I do know there are straight people out there who "get it," and it's always nice to "meet" one to whom I don't have to explain things, if that's not too annoying a way to have to phrase it.
My actual point is that, if ours weren't a society that needed to abjure same-sex sexual relations, there'd be a lot more of it admitted to than there is currently, and we wouldn't have to worry about what we called the people doing it, or not.
Anyhoo, I'm off to scan for penguin porn. Wish me luck.
BTW, I'm not all that great to party with. Try not to be disappointed, but my gayness predated house music to the extent that I'm not even sure I'd recognize it if I heard it. Can you hum a few bars? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| It is not about tolerance and equality anymore; it is about who defines what is "normal" for everyone and how we should all act. |
I think you are going too far here... |
That is probably because you have not seen the academy from the inside on these issues as closely as have I.
I know full professors who will only discuss it behind closed doors. But they have quite a bit to say about it once that door is shut.
In any case, people are playing with norms, rearranging them to suit their political purposes. Some of them have even consciously used the word "reeducate." Indeed they already enjoy much success: anyone who questions the penguin book or points out that, no matter how you do the math, two male penguins cannot produce a baby penguin, must be homophobic, right? Just as anyone who criticizes Arabs or suggests that Indians abused their environments, too, must be a racist.
No matter. It is far from decided. It is in fact a raging culture war. But to deny that one of the several sides is aiming to do exactly what I said above, and that OP's penguin story is almost certainly a part of it, strongly suggests to me that you are not as familiar with these issues as I am.
Call me arrogant if you like. I can start posting an entire bibliography to back up my position if needed, though, starting with Michel Foucault. And Elliston's is one of the moderately-worded ones, by the way.
However this may be, I, for one, do not object to publishing books like the one OP refers to. I do have concerns when it is explictly intended to work through children to destabilize long-established, if questionable, norms, only to replace them with another culture factions equally arbitrarily-arrived at norms, and one that would, in the long-term, negate one of Darwin's laws in the name of political correctness: species preservation.
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It is not about tolerance and equality anymore; it is about who defines what is "normal" for everyone and how we should all act. |
I think you are going too far here... |
That is probably because you have not seen the academy from the inside on these issues as closely as have I.
I know full professors who will only discuss it behind closed doors. But they have quite a bit to say about it once that door is shut.
In any case, people are playing with norms, rearranging them to suit their political purposes. Some of them have even consciously used the word "reeducate." Indeed they already enjoy much success: anyone who questions the penguin book or points out that, no matter how you do the math, two male penguins cannot produce a baby penguin, must be homophobic, right? Just as anyone who criticizes Arabs or suggests that Indians abused their environments, too, must be a racist.
No matter. It is far from decided. It is in fact a raging culture war. But to deny that one of the several sides is aiming to do exactly what I said above, and that OP's penguin story is almost certainly a part of it, strongly suggests to me that you are not as familiar with these issues as I am.
Call me arrogant if you like. I can start posting an entire bibliography to back up my position if needed, though, started with Michel Foucault. And Elliston's is one of the moderately-worded ones, by the way.
However this may be, I, for one, do not object to publishing books like the one OP refers to. I do have concerns when it is explictly intended to work through children to destabilize long-established, if questionable, norms, only to replace them with another culture factions equally arbitrarily-arrived at norms, and one that would, in the long-term, negate one of Darwin's laws in the name of political correctness: species preservation. |
Here's the thing. Sure it's manipulation, but just about everything is. Everything you read, including this post I'm writing, is designed to in some way affect, alter, or influence your thinking or behaviour. Not necessarily a bad thing, but people should be aware of it. But a book like this is not designed to produce more gay people. They are designed to produce heterosexual people who do not think it is vile, shocking, repulsive, improper, or immoral be to be gay. It's about increasing acceptance. Understand this, you cannot "create" gay people. They are either gay or not. And increasing acceptance is not going to mean a rise in the number of gay people. The species is in no danger of dying out because we fail to reproduce ourselves. |
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