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Slep
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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 Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
No, you haven't. You have just absorbed the rhetoric of the idiotic whackademics who hated him for his success. |
It's hard to claim that his policies are an absolute success. Post colonial countries that have had hte most economic growth include China, Brazil and Japan, none of which have followed the neo-liberal model as Friedman explained it. They all included higher levels of state involvement than other post colonial countries yet their economies, as a whole, are better. Friedman didn't have a whole lot to say about the economic wellbeing of the individual, mainly just for economies on the whole.
But seriously, whackademics?!?!
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| Though, it is telling, isn't it. Lefty academics are responsible for PolPot, Mao, Stalin and the idiocy that passes for public opinion/policy in Latin America. |
I hadn't realized that I was personally responsible for the the attrocities of Pol Pot, Mao & Stalin. I think you've been listening to thsoe whackademics a bit too often.
If you're willing to blame academia for the attrocities of Pol Pot (although an interesting example considering the US briefly sent military aid to act as a counter weight to the vietnamese communists), Mao and Stalin (a tenuous link at best, surely something a whackademic thought up), then surely you hold equal outrage towards the CIA and US government. I mean, arming Chilean and other Latin American dictatorships during Operation Condor and teaching them how to torture 'dissidents' is arguably the worst human rights crime committed in the Americas, save the genocide of its original inhabitants.
Not to mention support for some of history's other notorious thugs, including PW Botha (apartheid), Idi Amin (crimes against humanity), Reza Pavlovia (installed by the US, ruled under a regime of torture and killing until he was overthrown), Suharto (killed over 1 million indonesians with US made weapons), Commander Marcos (BUsh Sr praised him for his "adherence to democratic principals and to the democratic processes" while he was busy torturng and killing and imposing martial law for years on end in Phillipinnes), Duvalier in Haiti, Cordoza, Musharef,king Fahd, etc...
You seem like an intelligent guy, i'm sure you share your outrage and disgust for these criminals and thugs as I do for Stalin, Pot and Mao.
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| Every bad and bloody idea of the last 100 years came exclusively from the academic left. |
Non sequiteur, but i'll try.
As have the human rights movement, civil rights movement, gay rights movement, decolonalism, feminism, etc...
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| And yes, Hitler too (right wing my arse....National Socialism...economically no different than what is prescribed for LA on a daily [ basis by "sociologists" and their ilk). |
Nope, it was fascism, or as Mussolini called it, corporatism. Sounds like you need to start listening to more whackademics.
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| But the only academic who succeeded in bringing a real economy and poverty reduction (and hence the backbone to the modern Chilean democracy) is Friedman. And yet they throw stones at him and ignore their own mess. They hate him because he exposes their own failures. |
Of course criticism of Friedman has nothing to do with him collaborating with one of the worst human rights abusers since WW2, nor for the dogmatism his views have been treated with and their effects on the the worlds poor, not to mention the environment.
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| Slep, you are ignorant on this topic. Full stop. He has written extensively about his time working for the Chilean government. Maybe you should read up on what he has to say. |
Again, i've read a fair bit of his work, the Chicago Boys colluding with Pinochet is unforgivable. Full stop.
Last edited by Slep on Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| National Socialism |
You really do need to read up on this so you stop embarrassing yourself. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| National Socialism |
You really do need to read up on this so you stop embarrassing yourself. |
Well, what really bugs me is when people call Kim Jong-Il a dictator.
The Democratic People's Republic Of Korea.
Considering how bad things are up North, I can't believe there are still people on these boards who defend democracy!
Last edited by On the other hand on Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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Seriously though. The whole point of the Nazi party was to take votes away from the Left, through the use of populist economic rhetoric. So yes, they put the word "socialist" in their name, and ran a semi-interventionist economic policy when they came to power. But these things alone don't make a party socialist.
Last edited by On the other hand on Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Slep
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| not to mention the brown shirts and black shirts in Germany and England's main purpose was to beat the shit out of communists and other dissidents. Or that Hitler and Mussolini received the majority of their initial support from corporations who felt he was a counterweight to Socialism (one of the main reasons he was Times man of the year in 1938) |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| not to mention the brown shirts and black shirts in Germany and England's main purpose was to beat the *beep* out of communists and other dissidents. Or that Hitler and Mussolini received the majority of their initial support from corporations who felt he was a counterweight to Socialism |
All true.
It should be pointed out that, in general, German businessmen would have PREFERRED to back the old-line conservatives, who were considered more reliably pro-business than the Nazis. However, by the 1930s, elitist conservativism was no longer able to appeal to the enfranchised masses. So business threw its lot in with the more populist Nazis.
This is concisely discussed in the book I've linked to below.
http://tinyurl.com/y43v4t |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:36 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the link, OTOH. It looks like a good source book. I'll add it to my reading list.
Did you read the 5th review? It's a good example of the distortion of history that elements in the Right have been up to. What I find frightening about it is how common this Big Lie has become.
Here is a brief exerpt:
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First of all the author incorrectly calls the German Nazi's a fascist party. This is so absurd that it is easily rebuffed here,... Later, Stalin thought up the switch of the applying the Italian "fascist" designation to German national socialist in order to erase from memory that the Nazis were, in fact, socialist...
Regardless of the name that a socialist party chooses they all have the same elements in common. They are as follows:
1. Restriction of Individual Freedom
2. A strong central authority
3. The usurpation of legislative and judicial prerogative by the executive branch of the government
4. Some suspension of property rights.
...To label it conservative is a glaringly illogical deduction.
Since the author's main conclusion are drawn from such falsehoods the whole book is suspect and can be passed by and nothing but a propaganda front for the new-socialist and their continuing ploy to tar the conservatives with the atrocities of their political kin.
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I find this spooky. I can only conclude that elements of the Right are trying to resurrect Fascism so they can impose it. |
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Slep
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| thanks for the link. It'll have to tide me over until BJWD decides to respond to my post. I want to learn more about whackademics. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| Slep wrote: |
I was under the impression that Brazil's economy has been doing better, could be wrong though.
Pinochet was also the greatest destroyer of human life the America's have seen since the first colonialists. |
you were under the wrong impression.
And I'd venture the US killed more native americans in the frontier wars than Pinochet. Nice hyperbole though.
How many do you believe were killed during Pinochet's dictatorship? |
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Slep
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Slep wrote: |
I was under the impression that Brazil's economy has been doing better, could be wrong though.
Pinochet was also the greatest destroyer of human life the America's have seen since the first colonialists. |
you were under the wrong impression.
And I'd venture the US killed more native americans in the frontier wars than Pinochet. Nice hyperbole though.
How many do you believe were killed during Pinochet's dictatorship? |
otice i said since colonialism, the natives being the primary victim of colonialism.
27000 tortured
a minimum of 3100 murdered (that's the number the Chilean government allowed to be taken to court of definate recordable murders, again these are minimums)
and a couple thousand forceably dissapeared
although due to operation Condor, we should probably raise these numbers to include other parts of latin america, europe and the US)
Am I the only one who thinks Chile's larger economy is moot (although economists disagree on the strength of Chile's economy, in particular due to the lack of affordable housing, employment, etc.. but that's just people playign with stats). Pinochet was tried, and found guilty of crimes against humanity, health not withstanding. There is international law precedents named after him. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| so you consider the wars against Sitting Bull, Geronimo, etc as colonialism? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| Slep wrote: |
| thanks for the link. It'll have to tide me over until BJWD decides to respond to my post. I want to learn more about whackademics. |
Don't worry, I'll help you sort out the mess that is your mind when I get out of this hellish airport in Taiwan.
But, I want you to think about why MF got all that scorn while Sarte got off with his reputatin in tact. Or, do you even know about what Sarte was up to? No, of course you don't. Google it, learn about it, and then ponder why you were never told about that yet were told about MF by your flunky profs at whatever B rate uni you studied "arts" at. Also, go read about the Hitler supporting "intellectuals" that are still taught in modern uni today by leftists. |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| Slep, it was a pleasure to see you utterly school BJWD point for point and expose him as the irrational ignoramus he is. I hope to see you do it again in the near future. kudos. |
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Slep
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Slep wrote: |
| thanks for the link. It'll have to tide me over until BJWD decides to respond to my post. I want to learn more about whackademics. |
Don't worry, I'll help you sort out the mess that is your mind when I get out of this hellish airport in Taiwan.
But, I want you to think about why MF got all that scorn while Sarte got off with his reputatin in tact. Or, do you even know about what Sarte was up to? No, of course you don't. Google it, learn about it, and then ponder why you were never told about that yet were told about MF by your flunky profs at whatever B rate uni you studied "arts" at. Also, go read about the Hitler supporting "intellectuals" that are still taught in modern uni today by leftists. |
I'm happy to see you ignored every one of my points.
I know who Sartre is. I'll continue to be respectful while you sort to ad hominums. It's fine, i'll muddle through em. I assume you're discussing Sartre's colluding with the Vichy regime during ww2. I'm guessing, cause as far as the political, this was really what he was most criticized for during his public career. Studied that as well. See the reason that Milton Friedman gets more criticism (although neitehr get a whole lot, it's realyl only a small subset of university students who even study eitehr of them, much less criticize em) is because, as far as I can tell, Friedman's ideas were far more prevalent in Pinoche'ts Chile than Sartre's in Vichy's french.
Now Nietzche, he gets fucking criticized (i'm not sure how justly) for how he was coopted by the Nazi's.
I have no idea what you're talking about regarding Hitler's support of intellectuals. I know he was a fan of Wagner's symphonies but other than that, i'm really drawing a blank. |
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Slep
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| pastis wrote: |
| Slep, it was a pleasure to see you utterly school BJWD point for point and expose him as the irrational ignoramus he is. I hope to see you do it again in the near future. kudos. |
Cheers. Just glad to do my part. |
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