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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:07 am Post subject: |
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Excellent link and good analogy. I think this review committee's concerns are well-articulated and constructive. I am not sure I would say the same thing for the specific incident we are discussing here, but there is room to exchange views and talk about it.
Please at least concede that there is a world of difference in tone and content between this committee's language and the language we see from some posters on this thread, where Gandhi and others have been cited -- not to mention this gem...
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| Abusive pig cops like that should be subjected to some kind of psychological Orwellian rat torture... |
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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corroonb
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| Secondly, "who you are" is everything in matters like this. It shapes how you are inclined to consider the evidence. Did you read this from the limited perspective of one hostile press account and an unsatisfactory video and jump to the conclusion that this was -- not really sorry for this, Laogaiguk -- a "clear-cut" case of police brutality? Or would you rather lay back, give the police the benefit of the doubt for the moment, but demand to review all reports, all witness accounts -- including the campus security who originally dealt with him! -- and then measure all of this by the campus police's policies and procedures like I would? |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
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| An ad hominem fallacy consists of asserting that someone's argument is wrong and/or he is wrong to argue at all purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the person or those persons cited by him rather than addressing the soundness of the argument itself. The implication is that the person's argument and/or ability to argue correctly lacks authority. Merely insulting another person in the middle of otherwise rational discourse does not necessarily constitute an ad hominem fallacy. It must be clear that the purpose of the characterization is to discredit the person offering the argument, and, specifically, to invite others to discount his arguments. In the past, the term ad hominem was sometimes used more literally, to describe an argument that was based on an individual, or to describe any personal attack. However, this is not how the meaning of the term is typically introduced in modern logic and rhetoric textbooks, and logicians and rhetoricians are in agreement that this use is incorrect. |
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html
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Example of Ad Hominem
Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally wrong."
Dave: "Of course you would say that, you're a priest."
Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?"
Dave: "Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can't believe what you say."
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http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adhomine.html
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A Circumstantial Ad Hominem is one in which some irrelevant personal circumstance surrounding the opponent is offered as evidence against the opponent's position. This fallacy is often introduced by phrases such as: "Of course, that's what you'd expect him to say." The fallacy claims that the only reason why he argues as he does is because of personal circumstances, such as standing to gain from the argument's acceptance.
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| In any case, "who you are" is so important that lawyers dismiss jurors like you all the time, especially if you are inherently hostile to the police and believe that they generally "lie." And there are several like that on this thread... |
Wow, we're in a court of law, I didn't notice that, I thought this was a discussion forum. Silly me.
I'm inherently hostile to police and believe that they generally lie. 
That is one obscene generalisation. In one circumstance I have demonstrated hostility towards police using excessive force and now I'm 'inherently' hostile. Sure believe what you like, regardless of evidence.
So one instance is now generally? I believe in this circumstance the police are not being honest but I do not believe that the police lie in every circumstance. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Please at least concede that there is a world of difference in tone and content between this committee's language and the language we see from some posters on this thread, where Gandhi and others have been cited |
Yes, comparing him to Gandhi is a bit, um, excessive, to say the least. But surely you recognize the difference between a formal report and an internet forum. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Please at least concede that there is a world of difference in tone and content between this committee's language and the language we see from some posters on this thread, where Gandhi and others have been cited |
Yes, comparing him to Gandhi is a bit, um, excessive, to say the least. But surely you recognize the difference between a formal report and an internet forum. |
I bet the debate was a bit more heated behind closed doors before writing the report (though I doubt anyone brought up Ghandi  ). |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Excellent link and good analogy. I think this review committee's concerns are well-articulated and constructive. I am not sure I would say the same thing for the specific incident we are discussing here, but there is room to exchange views and talk about it.
Please at least concede that there is a world of difference in tone and content between this committee's language and the language we see from some posters on this thread, where Gandhi and others have been cited -- not to mention this gem...
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| Abusive pig cops like that should be subjected to some kind of psychological Orwellian rat torture... |
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That goes for you too farm boy. Back to the army barracks for you; fall in line, don't talk back, or you'll get a whack on the head...
...or tased perhaps? That would be nice. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| I read the article and saw the video. I think he asked for it, he deserved it, and he got it. Good job. |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| I read the article and saw the video. I think he asked for it, he deserved it, and he got it. Good job. |
I'm kind of surprised to hear you say so (usually I agree with your posts), and suspect perhaps you didn't really think it through...
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Tabatabainejad was also stunned with the Taser when he was already handcuffed, said Carlos Zaragoza, a third-year English and history student who witnessed the incident.
"(He was) no possible danger to any of the police," Zaragoza said. "(He was) getting shocked and Tasered as he was handcuffed." |
The guy may have been a belligerent little b@stard or a complete tool, which is possible (though I'm not entirely convinced that he was, given the unreasonable behavior of those cops as well), but regardless, it is not an officer's job to punish anyone. Shocking a completely defenseless, handcuffed individual is nothing more than punishment. It's beyond obvious that they were doing it out of some kind of punitive spite. I could maybe see tasing him just one time and erring on the side of caution, but to do so repeatedly and completely unnecessarily (in regards to the safety of others) was inexusable and disgusting to see - much like seeing a bully pick on someone smaller and defenseless disgusts me.
I guess there's the possibility that those police were not properly trained and didn't realise how painful and dangerous a taser is (it's not a toy). In that case they or their superiors are guilty of negligence. The other possibility is that they knew full well what they were doing, in which case they are guilty of deliberate abuse.
My guess is it was the latter. In the U.S. that kind of crap is not uncommon, especially when the suspect is a non-white male. It's certainly not the first time the police have abused their authority (or been video-taped doing so). |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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"WASHINGTON - The number of people who have died in the U.S. after being shocked by police stun guns is growing rapidly, Amnesty International says in a report that catalogs 156 in the past five years.
Deaths after the use of Taser stun guns have risen from three in 2001 to 61 last year, the international human rights group said. Fourteen have died so far this year, it said, citing police and autopsy reports as well as press accounts." AP
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/1-03282006-632535.html
"Many of those who died were high on drugs, mentally ill or otherwise agitated. Many deaths in the past year occurred after victims were hit by Tasers at least three times and, in some cases, for prolonged periods, the report said." Same Article
In Las Vegas they are getting smarter.
"Police officers in Las Vegas may no longer use Tasers on handcuffed prisoners and are discouraged from applying direct multiple shocks, following two deaths in 2004." Same Article
Two deaths later.
cbc |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| pastis wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
| I read the article and saw the video. I think he asked for it, he deserved it, and he got it. Good job. |
I'm kind of surprised to hear you say so (usually I agree with your posts), and suspect perhaps you didn't really think it through...
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Well I wish it was not surprising that people address things issue by issue instead of taking a consistanty "conservative" or a consistantly "liberal" approach.
Going a bit further than I did last time, I don't think they needed to taser him that many times, if at all. That's looking at it from a strictly legalistic and tactical point of view. They could have simply cuffed him and hauled him out by force. However, from a strictly emotional/moral point of view, I think he thoroughly deserved it, and I'm not sorry it happened at all, especially if, as has been hinted at, he actually did have his card and was merely refusing to show it because he felt he was being racially profiled. Clearly the dude has major major issues and is deeply wound up about something. That wasn't just a random out of the blue event. He had absolutely no good reason to refuse to go, and was clearly trying to make some kind of point, possibly political. He made it happen, and he had it coming.
So I have a slightly complex response to it. I don't think the cops did a good job, and that worries me, because they could end up doing that again, perhaps to someone who genuinely doesn't deserve it. On the other hand, I find it simply impossible to take the guys side. He was a complete and utter knob end, and a stone cold idiot in the way he behaved. He brought it on himself. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Police have no way of knowing, in advance of deploying the taser, whether a person has a pre-existing condition, that could lead to complication from a good tasing.
Epilepsy
Enlarged Heart
Excess Respiratory Pressure
Abnormal Heart Rhythm
In defense of my previous post where I did not distinguish correctly between violent and nonviolent, I have no excuse other than I should have chosen words more carefully, the way I wrote it was not the way it was intended, and I wish to apologize to anyone that was offended. I do not blame the White House or anyone in congress for the interpretation of what I wrote to be anything other than what I intended. 
cbc |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| pastis wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
| I read the article and saw the video. I think he asked for it, he deserved it, and he got it. Good job. |
I'm kind of surprised to hear you say so (usually I agree with your posts), and suspect perhaps you didn't really think it through...
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Well I wish it was not surprising that people address things issue by issue instead of taking a consistanty "conservative" or a consistantly "liberal" approach.
Going a bit further than I did last time, I don't think they needed to taser him that many times, if at all. That's looking at it from a strictly legalistic and tactical point of view. They could have simply cuffed him and hauled him out by force. However, from a strictly emotional/moral point of view, I think he thoroughly deserved it, and I'm not sorry it happened at all, especially if, as has been hinted at, he actually did have his card and was merely refusing to show it because he felt he was being racially profiled. Clearly the dude has major major issues and is deeply wound up about something. That wasn't just a random out of the blue event. He had absolutely no good reason to refuse to go, and was clearly trying to make some kind of point, possibly political. He made it happen, and he had it coming.
So I have a slightly complex response to it. I don't think the cops did a good job, and that worries me, because they could end up doing that again, perhaps to someone who genuinely doesn't deserve it. On the other hand, I find it simply impossible to take the guys side. He was a complete and utter knob end, and a stone cold idiot in the way he behaved. He brought it on himself. |
My main point was that (any possible racial issues aside) even if he was just a complete knob, and had serious issues, it still doesn't excuse the cops in any way. It's their job to rise above such pettiness, and not take it personally by punishing the suspect like that. It's not their job to punish, and they had no excuse for doing so. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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Taser happy cops have already killed hundreds of people.  |
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ChuckECheese
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| Taser happy cops have already killed hundreds of people. |
Tased people have killed more innocent people. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| ChuckECheese wrote: |
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| Taser happy cops have already killed hundreds of people. |
Tased people have killed more innocent people. |
One, I think IGTG took his/her vacation from this board before you joined. Responding is more useless than even responding to meegook.
Mod EditP Removed flame. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| Tased people have killed more innocent people. |
You obviously havent thought that through.
If they got tased that means they got caught. If they had already killed someone before they got caught they would probably not have got tased either, they would have been taken down a lot harder than that. I dont think the taser is the first line of attack with murder suspects. |
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