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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| huh? i don't get what you're refering to satori. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| Is not something then deeply amiss if the government is not in control of the military? |
Which do you think more likely:
(a) that the United States govt pulled all of the strings in the Southern Cone; or
(b) that the United States govt supported preexisting patterns -- patterns that were going to go forward and repeat themselves one way or another -- because such support was in the perceived interests of the state?
That was my point (and implicit criticism of the left's position). This, by the way, is not "defense" or "justification." But the "Look what they did!" allegation is wholly unwarranted.
"Should we have contributed to that?" is a far better question. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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Hunting down and killing revolutionists is a war crime?
Some people considered Bonnie and Clyde to be revolutionists.
When Revolutionists are a small minority they become violent criminal political gangs some are just gangters.
Take the Symbionese Liberation Front, gangsters with a political motive.
Charles Manson had political motive, Helter Skelter and black on white revolution. The SDS.....
But, I digress.
In todays world there is no real Military success.
The Taking of Bagdad was measure. The capture of Saddam was a measure. The topling of the Batthist regime was a measure.
We never lost a battle in Vietnam, we lost the occupation, thus the war.
The occupation of Iraq a disaster.
The hearts and minds cannot be won by foriegn power, they are won by custom and tradition.
If self rule is the goal for Iraq then let them rule themselves.
cbc |
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corroonb
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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The occupation of Iraq a disaster.
The hearts and minds cannot be won by foriegn power, they are won by custom and tradition.
If self rule is the goal for Iraq then let them rule themselves. |
I agree with this assessment. I think that maintaining the status quo is useless because the situation in Iraq has been awful for years and its unlikely to improve in the near future. I can't see what good the foreign troops are actually doing besides assuring people that the war and occupation were not in vain. I also think that any conflict that occurs after a withdrawal will likely be internal as this is already happening.
| Quote: |
Hunting down and killing revolutionists is a war crime?
Some people considered Bonnie and Clyde to be revolutionists.
When Revolutionists are a small minority they become violent criminal political gangs some are just gangters. |
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| On December 22, 1992, a significant amount of information about Operation Condor came to light when Jos� Fernandez, a Paraguayan judge, visited a police station in the Lambar� suburb of Asunci�n to look for files on a former political prisoner. Instead he found what became known as the "terror archives", detailing the fates of thousands of Latin Americans secretly kidnapped, tortured and killed by the security services of Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay and Uruguay. Some of these countries have since used portions of this archive to prosecute former military officers. The archives counted 50,000 persons murdered, 30,000 "desaparecidos" and 400,000 incarcerated people. |
Mart�n Almada, "Paraguay: The Forgotten Prison, the Exiled Country"
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Victims of Operation Condor
Mart�n Almada, educationalist in Paraguay, tortured three years long
Carlos Altamirano, leader of the Chilean Socialist Party, targeted for murder by Pinochet in 1975
Bernardo Leighton, narrowly escaped murder in Rome in 1975
Orlando Letelier, murdered in 1976 in Washington D.C.
US Congressman Edward Koch, who became aware in 2001 of relations between 1970s threats on his life and Operation Condor
Eduardo Frei Montalva, may have been poisoned in the early 1980s according to current investigations
General Carlos Prats, assassinated in Buenos Aires in 1974
Bolivian president Juan Jos� Torres |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Plan_Condor
http://www.unesco.org/courier/2000_07/uk/edito.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1866517.stm
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| (b) that the United States govt supported preexisting patterns -- patterns that were going to go forward and repeat themselves one way or another -- because such support was in the perceived interests of the state? |
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"I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves." — Henry Kissinger
"We didn't do it. I mean we helped them. [Garbled] created the conditions as great as possible. — Henry Kissinger conversing with President Nixon about the coup
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Last edited by corroonb on Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:24 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
| But, I digress... |
Yes, you do. You are so far all over the place that whatever point you wanted to make is obscured. Bonnie and Clyde, Vietnam, Charlie Manson, and Iraq all wrapped up in one neat little post. You mentioned everybody but Gandhi, this time. But what happened to Gandhi?
And, cornhoolio, there is already a thread for those like you, in a distemperous wrath, exacerbated by profound ignorance, who want to convict and execute Kissinger for all that happened in Latin America and elsewhere during the Cold War. Why not go back to that one and post your cases for the prosecution...?
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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corroonb
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Nice bit of editing, you don't read very fast, do you?
400,000 incarcerated, not murdered.
Ha Ha Ha.
Very witty and typcially Gopher. Using ad-hominem attacks with wilfull abandon. How sad is it to have to insult strangers? Very.
This is a flame.
Last edited to remove counter-flame, apologies.
Last edited by corroonb on Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| corroonb wrote: |
| Nice bit of editing...Ha Ha Ha. |
This may be the most intellectually dishonest post I've seen yet. No need to get into any further details, as you and I at least know what your post said before you reedited it three times...
And for whoever it was who asked me a while back to clarify: this is a prime example of an allegation-driven discourse on U.S. foreign affairs. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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I am well within context.
The OP is about Military success in Iraq, thus Iraq.
The threads previous to mine diverged onto Operation Condor.
I threw out a few examples of hunting down people from our own history to try to get some response as to what Condor was all about.
I discovered in a subsequent response that Condor was about the disappearing of people in South America.
Maybe it should have been two separate responses so to keep within the limited boundaries of some of the readers.
So is this discussion limited to Iraq or Henry K. or Condor?
If you want to inject a rule please feel free. If not then may I refer you to the complaint department.
http://www.complaints.com/
cbc |
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corroonb
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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I only added articles to my post, I never edited anything that I posted.
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| This may be the most intellectually dishonest post I've seen yet. No need to get into any further details, as you and I at least know what your post said before you reedited it three times... |
That is a flat out lie, I quoted that directly from a wikipedia article so why would I change it and then change it back. You and every one can see it right here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor#History
paragraph 4, I cut and pasted it and that is what you read, before claiming that I said 400,000 people had been murdered, 50,000 were murdered, 30,000 were disappeared
| Quote: |
| you and I at least know what your post said before you reedited it three times... |
Your obvious dishonesty appalls me. Do you truly believe that I wrote 400,000 murdered?
Last edited (4th) to remove my flame, apologies to all.
Last edited by corroonb on Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:58 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
| So is this discussion limited to Iraq or Henry K. or Condor? |
On this board any discussion that treats anything at all, such as whether seedless grapes are healthier than scrambled eggs, the discussion will sooner or later descend into a series of bitter, hateful diatribes against the United States, W. Bush, or Henry Kissinger. Iraq will come up. Mass-destruction weapons will be offered as the ultimate trump card for any point anyone wants to make at all. And, of yeah, Gandhi and Charlie Manson appear from time to time, too...  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| corroonb wrote: |
| I only added articles to my post, I never edited anything that I posted... |
Didn't have any especially righteous-sounding commentary to go along with it, huh?
Sure. Whatever you say. |
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corroonb
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| the discussion will sooner or later descend into a series of bitter, hateful diatribes against the United States, W. Bush, or Henry Kissinger. |
Only Kissinger was mentioned in this thread. Nothing was said about the US Involvement in South America that wasn't relevant to Kissinger.
Why bring Bush into this?
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| Mass-destruction weapons will be offered as the ultimate trump card for any point anyone wants to make at all. |
Why bring this up unless you are trying to instigate a "hateful, bitter diatribe"?
So if you criticize US Foreign policy past and present, it is because you're bitter and hateful? Yet again this is another ad-hominem attack, your favourite fallacy.
I have no connection whatsoever either with Kissinger, South America or the United States of America. Why would I be bitter and hateful?
I give up. Say as you wish. Interpret as you wish. Lie as you wish. I don't think anyone is convinced.
I should never have mentioned Operation Condor, that was a big mistake. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| corroonb wrote: |
| I should never have mentioned...Condor, that was a big mistake. |
No. The mistake was that you believed that by reading a Wikipedia article and Google-fishing for ideologically-slanted materials to support your pre-conclusion that you somehow became an authority on the matter...
Let me clarify one thing for you, though: Guatemala was the worst-case scenario in all of the western hemisphere. Most people accept that between one-hundred and two-hundred thousand died there between, say, 1966 and 1996 (roughly). I assure you that the overall Cold War-era regional deaths did not top, my estimate, between 250,000-300,000 violent deaths between 1945-1995 (roughly) -- that is the entire Latin American and Caribbean region.
The U.S. has bloody hands from this. But I am far from convinced that U.S. involvement decisively caused or could have stopped it. Same in African affairs. Indeed, look at what is going on there today. |
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corroonb
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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I mentioned Operation Condor because Henry Kissinger is still wanted for arrest in multiple countries for his involvement in this part of history.
| Quote: |
Let me clarify one thing for you, though: Guatemala was the worst-case scenario in all of the western hemisphere. Most people accept that between one-hundred and two-hundred thousand died there between, say, 1966 and 1996 (roughly). I assure you that the overall Cold War-era regional deaths did not top, my estimate, between 250,000-300,000 violent deaths between 1945-1995 (roughly) -- that is the entire Latin American and Caribbean region.
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I posted that quote from wikipedia that said 50,000 persons murdered. This evidence was taken from the Terror Archives discovered by Jose Fernandez.
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| The documents that can be consulted in Asuncion are mainly police archives covering Paraguay alone |
http://www.unesco.org/courier/2000_07/uk/edito.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_archives
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| No. The mistake was that you believed that by reading a Wikipedia article and Google-fishing for ideologically-slanted materials to support your pre-conclusion that you somehow became an authority on the matter... |
I never claimed to be an authority,where is the evidence for that?
I did not post one piece of information that originated from my own knowledge so there was no pre-conclusion. Questions were asked and I posted the first few links to news articles that I could find. There was nothing ideological about this. Are there any articles available that you could link to that are not 'ideologically slanted' on Operation Condor? I'd love to read some.
Edited Twice. First for spelling error, Second to add wikipedia link to "terror archives".
Edit: Having looked over the thread, I see I made no allegations whatsoever over American involvement in Operation Condor. I mentioned that Kissinger was wanted in several countries in relation to Operation Condor and I quoted from and linked to articles to explain what Operation Condor was. So why get all defensive about American foreign policy?
You questioned American involvement in the region and I responded with two quotes made by Kissinger illustrating his personal involvement in South America not in Operation Condor but in the overthrow of Allende.
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| Actions approved by the U.S. government during this period aggravated political polarization and affected Chile's long tradition of democratic elections and respect for the constitutional order and the rule of law. |
Ideologically slanted again?
http://foia.state.gov/Press/WH11-13-00.asp |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| corroonb wrote: |
| ...I made no allegations whatsoever over American involvement in Operation Condor. I mentioned that Kissinger was wanted in several countries in relation to Operation Condor... |
Doubletalk.
| corroonb wrote: |
| ...why get all defensive about American foreign policy? |
Why take an issue that involves Latin American affairs, local conditions, and actors who acted for their own reasons more than anything else, and place all of this squarely in the arena of "American foreign policy" and "Kissinger"? Do you really believe he was that omnipotent in world affairs?
| corroonb wrote: |
| Ideologically slanted again? |
No. Just diplomacy. Ever heard of it? |
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