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Delirium's Brother
Joined: 08 May 2006
Location: Out in that field with Rumi, waiting for you to join us!
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 Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
| I think that's a rather cynical interpretation. Even in poor coor countries you see people watching TV, so I'm guessing they have some idea that "there is a better life" out there. Perhaps they are "happier" because they need to rely on each other more and consequently have closer relationships. Perhaps without the Internet, they converse with people face to face rather than in cyberspace. |
"`There is a better life' out there." I'm assuming that you primarily mean wealth and its derivatives. Wealth and happiness are not the same thing. Wealth makes for ease and security, but not necessarily happiness. Happiness derives from meaning. Ease and meaning are not the same thing, either. |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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The most neurotic people I've met in my life have virtually all been Christians (including a few family members). It's because religion is purely compensatory. It's just filling some empty void with delusions. Reminds me of chewing on a biteful of monosodium glutamate and feeling all filled up with savory goodness. Feels wholesome, but it's just fake and unhealthy. Gives you ulcers.
That and it entails joining the herd of mediocrity, baa-ing like a sheep and feeling safety in numbers. If that's what "happiness" is supposed to be, you can count me out...  |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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I'd have to say the unhappiest people in the world are probably Catholics.
Similar to Green Tea's story, my best friend from junior high became a born-again Christian when we were in grade nine. He stopped going to school and he said "If Jesus wanted me to graduate, it would happen without me trying." He used to have the largest selection of Super Nintendo games, which he dumped in the garbage because they're evil (even though his dad worked himself to death for the money for them). He also disposed of his Spider-Man comic book collection, because "Spider-Man does work that only God should do." Uh, or the cops maybe. I had to stop talking to him because he called me every week for an entire year asking me to join his church. I was extremely frightened.
Shortly after that his mom became sick with a horrible disease and I'm not sure if she recovered. Around that time my mom ran into them in the supermarket. They all looked sick, malnourished, and ready to fall down and die. My mom said "So how are you guys?" and they all put on their big Christian smiles and responded "GREAT!!!!"
I feel sorry for them and I lost a good friend in him. I know Jesus isn't to blame but religion really messed them up. |
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JeJuJitsu
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Location: McDonald's
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah - Korea is definately a different story. The serious Christians I've met here, be they hangook or waygook, have tended to be seriously fucked up people.
As for back home I think it's about the same, except with the charismatics. Charismatic Christianity perhaps tends to attrack nuttier or more emotionally wrecked types to begin with, but I've known a number who at some point in their lives ended up really breaking down. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm a Christian, and I'm really, really happy. Great job, great friends, wonderful family. I know it's not fashionable and I'll never get a date with that sexy Richard Dawkins (or Gang Ah Jee for that matter) but that's the path I'm on. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Delirium's Brother wrote: |
| flakfizer wrote: |
| I think that's a rather cynical interpretation. Even in poor coor countries you see people watching TV, so I'm guessing they have some idea that "there is a better life" out there. Perhaps they are "happier" because they need to rely on each other more and consequently have closer relationships. Perhaps without the Internet, they converse with people face to face rather than in cyberspace. |
"`There is a better life' out there." I'm assuming that you primarily mean wealth and its derivatives. Wealth and happiness are not the same thing. Wealth makes for ease and security, but not necessarily happiness. Happiness derives from meaning. Ease and meaning are not the same thing, either. |
I think you misunderstood my post. I was quoting another poster. "There is a better life " out there was from his post. I think I'm in agreement with you. His argument was that the poor are happy because they don't know how the better off live. I disagreed. I suggested they could be happier because they lean on one another more and thus have closer relationships with one another. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| I'm a Christian, and I'm really, really happy. Great job, great friends, wonderful family. I know it's not fashionable and I'll never get a date with that sexy Richard Dawkins (or Gang Ah Jee for that matter) |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| pastis wrote: |
The most neurotic people I've met in my life have virtually all been Christians (including a few family members). It's because religion is purely compensatory. It's just filling some empty void with delusions. Reminds me of chewing on a biteful of monosodium glutamate and feeling all filled up with savory goodness. Feels wholesome, but it's just fake and unhealthy. Gives you ulcers.
That and it entails joining the herd of mediocrity, baa-ing like a sheep and feeling safety in numbers. If that's what "happiness" is supposed to be, you can count me out... |
Duly noted. |
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ella
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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I can honestly say that I'm happier and better-adjusted as a Christian than when I wasn't a Christian. (Edit: I'm Catholic.)
Last edited by ella on Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gamecock
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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I can only speak for myself, but I am a hundred times happier now than when I was a Christian. Being a guilt-ridden virgin...I don't miss those days! 
Last edited by Gamecock on Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| SOme studies have shown they are "happier". But they are usually done by Christian groups, and they usually don't define "happier" too well either. Ofcourse, I am not saying they are false. Studies show in that the poor farmers of third world countries are actually "happier" than us Westerners, mostly because they don't know that there is a better life. Ignorance is bliss they say. |
I don't think happiness has to do with ignorance. I know a TONNE of really, really smart people (atheists included) who are miserable old bich machines.
It's a matter of priorities, I think.
If you live and desire a simple life, you'll be happy because you can easily get that. If you want a complicated life, happiness is much harder to come by.
I'm a christian and I consider myself so, so so FUCKING lucky to have what I have. I got everything I need. I am fairly happy. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Delirium's Brother wrote: |
The happiness factor comes from the ritual practice, and not from any particular belief system. You could set up your own rituals and they would do just fine, as long as you really treated them as rituals (and weren't just *beep* around). The key elements are: - a metaphysics that differentiates between the sacred and the profane (it could be one of your own design, I imagine, but it would have to index the numinous for you), and
- a set of rituals that invoke this schema (you could design them yourself, but they need to meaningfully invoke the ineffable), and
- a faithful and continuous devotion to this ritual practice (this is the hard part).
I think you need all three (maybe you can get by with just 2 and 3). |
This is the only worthwhile post that's been made on the thread so far.
I would also speculate that the euphoric feeling experienced during ritual worship contributed to Green Tea's friend's eventual self-destruction. He got addicted to a good feeling, and went looking for it in drugs or alcohol. That happens a whole lot.
I used to be really heavy into charismatic Christianity as a youngster (high school). My youth group was fanatical. We started out small, and ended up with about 150 people at the peak time. Our worship rituals were nuts. We'd sometimes just worship for 6 or 7 hours at a time, canceling the sermon and everything else. That feeling you get when you are in a ritual induced trance is fantastic.
A lot of people fell out of it. We got cynical, and then the trance thing didn't work like it had in the past. All my friends and acquaintances from that group, about 40 people, ended up moving on to do a lot of drugs. Always searching for that euphoria again.
We even once devised our own ritual and found the same "holy ghost" feeling just amongst ourselves.
This is why you see the people who look so happy in the pictures while worshiping. Outside church, I think religion plays a limited role in happiness. Being happy has more to do with your personal beliefs, ethics, discipline, values, and perspective on life. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Christians are far from a unified group, so the question is unworkable. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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One, no one seems to be in agreement here of what happiness is really (not surprising, it's such a subjective thing). This alone makes this debate incredibly difficult.
Two, anyone who has to attain happiness by becoming a Christian is not as happy. This is obvious. Obviously, they were missing something that normal happy people had.
Three, I am not talking about happy Christians. I am talking abuot Christianity making people happier. It's true, but based on the following stories (ie ignorance). They fill their lives with stories they were told to feel better (it's not your fault, that's God's plan; or pray for a miracle; or you don't have to worry about your sins as long as you are truly repetant; or there is life after death, don't worry; etc...). Now all of those don't pertain to every case, and there are many more that do pertain to some cases that I didn't touch.
The happiest people (in my opinion) tend to be the ones who have accepted their lot in life (not saying that is good, just pointing it out) and decided it can't get better, make due with what you have now. Nothing to do with religion at all. |
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