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alffy
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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 Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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Daskalos, well said! Except for this final point:
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| We used to call volunteer armies something else. We called them mercenaries. |
History is replete with examples of non-mercenary volunteer armies from the Greek Hoplites to the (earlier) Romans in your example to America's Continental Army (for the most part).
Clark- very Libertarian of you! Involuntary servitude, the 13th Amendment, and conscription...you only failed to mention taxation and jury duty!
Aside from the fact the courts have consistently ignored this line of argument, it has a significant flaw...involuntary servitude involves forced (or coerced) labor by an individual for the benefit or gain of another (or, by extension, as you would assert, an organization such as government)- differing from outright slavery based primarily on the amount of freedom for the individual involved, but not the quantity or quality of gain to the laborer. If you wish to split hairs and mince definitions to assert your point, then please indulge me...since the "forced or coerced labor" applies to conscription under the 13th Amendments definition because you, or others choose not to serve, than the rest of the definition of Involuntary Servitude must exempt conscription (or any government service for that matter, as well, incidently, as taxation) from the application of said Amendment due to the easily demonstrable fact that government service benefits not just another (or others), but you as well, being a citizen.
Conscription and taxation benefit you directly, so constitutionally speaking, you are being forced to participate in government actions against your will for gain...hence, no Involuntary Servitude. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| alffy wrote: |
Daskalos, well said! Except for this final point:
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| We used to call volunteer armies something else. We called them mercenaries. |
History is replete with examples of non-mercenary volunteer armies from the Greek Hoplites to the (earlier) Romans in your example to America's Continental Army (for the most part).
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In most cases,Greek Hoplites were not volunteers, although I cannot speak for every Greek city-state at every time. Certainly, during the Pelopennesian War, the main belligerents, Sparta and Athens, both 'drafted' their younger citizens. In Sparta, of course, each citizen had mandatory service. Actually, in Greek times, one of the key differences between a free man and a slave was military service. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:41 am Post subject: |
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Yes, daskalos did say it well.
He also brought up a good point. An all-volunteer military can become a political threat. The US neutralized this by having a tiny military up until World War II. Then a large standing army was created, but it was a citizen army with most members serving only a short time before returning to civilian life. Having a year or so of compulsory service of some kind, including military, might be a good idea. |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| alffy wrote: |
Daskalos, well said! Except for this final point:
| Quote: |
| We used to call volunteer armies something else. We called them mercenaries. |
History is replete with examples of non-mercenary volunteer armies from the Greek Hoplites to the (earlier) Romans in your example to America's Continental Army (for the most part). |
Mea Culpa. My point about mercenary armies was at least in part an exaggeration. Of course, the American forces during the Revolutionary War were paid (or promised pay) and did employ foreign mercenary armies. Without checking, it seems I do remember some pay/mutiny issues with the Hessians, and a lot of disgruntedness after the war with citizens who hadn't been paid what they'd been promised.
My actual point behind the exaggeration is that, by and large, volunteers in the U.S. armed services today do not volunteer because they are patriots but because the money and benefits aren't bad for people who have few options. Patriots with money and social standing can just buy a flag and a pole to fly it on.
And Ya-ta Boy's point that our pre-WWII forces served only a short time before returning to civilian life also holds true for today's forces. We on the outside of the military don't see it, but the military puts just as much effort into retaining its volunteers beyond their first enlistment as it puts into initial recruitment, and the reason they do is that most people who join get out after their first enlistment. The ones who stay are disproportionately those who find the atmosphere to their liking, and the atmosphere is, as I implied before, a rather conservative one. This state of affairs wouldn't be likely to change much were there a draft, but it would change some, and perhaps enough to make the difference between Caesar's legions following him or not. (And please let's not get into whether Caesar was right or not -- personally, I believe he started, at least, with the people's welfare in mind. The Republic was a corrupt and calcified institution that was cutting its own throat by catering only to its moneyed classes at the expense of its middle and lower classes. And I know, there are those who claim the same thing about the U.S., and perhaps they do so with some reason, and perhaps that's why I make the point I make about volunteer armies. As I said, let's not get into that on this thread.)
My understanding, by the way, of ancient Greek and (early) Roman armies is that military service during time of need was a condition of citizenship, an unpaid or poorly paid condition at that, and that such a condition was not questioned, because the consequences of losing a war were somewhat more immediately graspable to them. Many countries today, in time of war or peace, including Greece, place that same condition on their male citizens for essentially the same reasons.
So, if we construe such service as volunteering, fine, but it's not at all the same thing as today's U.S. armed forces. Let's not pretend that, were the very decent pay and very decent benefits that are dandled before them not in play, we would have a viable volunteer force.
Okay, not quite mercenaries, but not quite selfless patriots, either. |
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alffy
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: |
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Agreed, agreed, agreed!
Daskalos I particularly like your thinking (not to mention your ability to articulate your thoughts).
I, too, have experienced military service as a political and social pariah in the US military during the Bush (41) and Clinton administrations. I served over 9 years and experienced the conservative nature of the forces and have met numerous members that served due to lack of other options (even knew a few of those "go in the service or go to jail" victims during the late '80s).
I believe you (and others, here) are correct to assert that freedom, liberty, and democracy in our time seems to lack any costs to the citizen (heck, even the war in Iraq was billed and executed as costing little or nothing to the public weal- of course the duration and costs in lives and wealth have put paid to those "truths").
Hence, I too support the idea of a universal conscription. Once a citizen has served the greater good of the nation, whether willingly or not, he/she will not only have a greater sense of the costs involved in such service but also a more appreciable understanding of the concept of freedom. I bet in such an instance we would see greater universal participation in government and public service. Heck, minimally voting percentages would increase.
Then, of course, there is the alternative concept which first came to my attention in the work by the SciFi author Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers- to wit, only those that have volunteered to serve their nation/goveernment/public for a minimum of 2 years in some capacity (not necessarily military) earn the franchise of citizenship.
Of course with the current atmosphere in the US forces one would think this would produce a very conservative government (well, maybe a little more conservative than what we currently have, anyway), but I think not. Actually, the US forces today tend to have a higher proportion of minorities serving in their ranks than is representative of the general public at large. Therefore, in such a system, minority groups (particularly African-Americans and Hispanic) would have greater control and access to governing.
Oh, one last thing- I was thinking of the early Hoplites (i.e. Marathon) and not the Peloponisian War-era (or Sparta, at all). Just goes to prove generalizations almost never work. Also, your points are well taken- even "volunteers" offer to fight for personal reasons (earning/maintaining citizenship, personal gain, protection of one's own property/rights, whatever), so we can probably make the sweeping generalization (  ) that there is no such thing as a truly "volunteer" force for the purposes of purely serving the greater good. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:49 am Post subject: ... |
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| Of course, the American forces during the Revolutionary War were paid (or promised pay) and did employ foreign mercenary armies. Without checking, it seems I do remember some pay/mutiny issues with the Hessians, and a lot of disgruntedness after the war with citizens who hadn't been paid what they'd been promised. |
Not that it matters, but the Hessians were employed by the British. Famously, they got it handed to them at the Battle of Trenton after boozing it up. I doubt the Americans had any money to hire mercenaries unless, perhaps, the French paid for them.
As for conscription/mandatory service, no thanks, but I'd be fine with something similar to the TVA or WPC of the Depression-era as an alternative way to help people get jobs. But nothing mandatory. America should be about freedom, not indoctrination. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| alffy wrote: |
Daskalos, well said! Except for this final point:
| Quote: |
| We used to call volunteer armies something else. We called them mercenaries. |
History is replete with examples of non-mercenary volunteer armies from the Greek Hoplites to the (earlier) Romans in your example to America's Continental Army (for the most part).
Clark- very Libertarian of you! Involuntary servitude, the 13th Amendment, and conscription...you only failed to mention taxation and jury duty!
Aside from the fact the courts have consistently ignored this line of argument, it has a significant flaw...involuntary servitude involves forced (or coerced) labor by an individual for the benefit or gain of another (or, by extension, as you would assert, an organization such as government)- differing from outright slavery based primarily on the amount of freedom for the individual involved, but not the quantity or quality of gain to the laborer. If you wish to split hairs and mince definitions to assert your point, then please indulge me...since the "forced or coerced labor" applies to conscription under the 13th Amendments definition because you, or others choose not to serve, than the rest of the definition of Involuntary Servitude must exempt conscription (or any government service for that matter, as well, incidently, as taxation) from the application of said Amendment due to the easily demonstrable fact that government service benefits not just another (or others), but you as well, being a citizen.
Conscription and taxation benefit you directly, so constitutionally speaking, you are being forced to participate in government actions against your will for gain...hence, no Involuntary Servitude. |
The Income tax is "Voluntary" and it is constitutional see the 16th amendment. Though it may be a libertarian cause to repeal the amendment it is still a lawfully ratified component of the constitution.
Yes, drafting jurors for jury duty is also involuntary servitude.
Redress your argument without your taxation component maybe it will stand on some merit.
The histories of the citizen army dating back to Sparta have some good ideological values for a militaristic republic; maybe we should also adopt the value of no citizenship until completion of service. The citizen army ideal is just that an ideal. The Spartan also threw male infants down steeps slopes to see if they could climb to the top, those who succeeded lived, the others were not recovered, another Spartan ideal.
The justification for military compulsive service in a military era is like justifying slave labor in a pre-industrial era.
cbc |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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