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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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 Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
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Also, israel has the original claims to that land. The Palestinians are a descendent of Israeli's orignal enemy, the phillistines. They came about after several rebel groups banded together and created their own people so to speak.
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Let's not bring that up. To think in those terms would destroy the entire world, where do you stop giving land back to people it was taken from? |
???
It was taken from the Jews when they were overrun back in biblical days.
Anyone who also is familiar with the bible will find this event documented in biblical text, as God's punishment to the Jews for disobeying him, but saying one day he'd bring them back together in their land.
The point being the Israeli's have the original claim.
Also I have no sympathy for the Arabs who complain about land taken as a result of the 6 day war. Had Israel started that war and stole the land, it would be one thing, but no, The Arabs started it, thinking they could suprise Israel. They bit off more then they could chew and lost. So as far as I'm concerned there argument is pure BS.
We won awar against Mexico, and have Texas, California etc as a result. You don't see Mexicans terror bombing the US. |
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freethought
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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man you're ignorant. Post 1945, it's been ILLEGAL to expand your country's land through war, regardless of who instigated the conflict. A nation may invade and capture territory during a conflict, but upon ending of hostilities the land must be returned.
This ain't complicated. What's your degree in, anyway?
As for disproving my point, nope, my point was essentially that you'll offer some event to which I will offer a different as a counter. Which is EXACTLY what you did.
Octavious' point is an important one. The policies that have been in place have not brought about peace or a successful resolution. Nor has blaming the other side.
A productive discussion would be explaining how continued occupation of lands helps bring peace closer. Policies can be debated and can be clearly defined, and potentially yield a productive discussion. What you're doing here doesn't.
If you want a discussion take any Israeli policy or Palestinian policy and explain how it does or doesn't bring peace closer. Then you'll have a discussion. But continue with the approach you take, and the discussion will go nowhere.
In competitive debate there are two things that are essentially off limits for discussion since nothing productive is ever achieved: 1. Israel, 2. Abortion. It's something that should be applied on every forum. Not as a tyrannical rule and as an oppressive measure, but to promote and allow for thoughtful, productive debate, which you're tact and position do not permit. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyone who also is familiar with the bible will find this event documented in biblical text, as God's punishment to the Jews for disobeying him, but saying one day he'd bring them back together in their land. |
Dude, I have a lot of respect for religion, and am not normally one to denigrate religious belief. But resorting to arguments about God's punishments and promises as documented in holy scripture REALLY doesn't help your case at all. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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^ Because the bible is fiction and only idiots take it as documented fact.
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The Poor Man's Nietzsche, ladies and gents. The Bargain Bin Voltaire. |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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| Anyone who also is familiar with the bible will find this event documented in biblical text, as God's punishment to the Jews for disobeying him, but saying one day he'd bring them back together in their land. |
Dude, I have a lot of respect for religion, and am not normally one to denigrate religious belief. But resorting to arguments about God's punishments and promises as documented in holy scripture REALLY doesn't help your case at all. |
*sigh*
I wasnt quoting scripture in biblical context there, but historical. Whether or not you believe scripture is one thing but it does also document some hisotircal things that did happen back then, such as wars, etc etc.
israel being driven form her homeland is one of them. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| freethought wrote: |
| thank you for proving my point. |
word.
This thread proves the futility in trying to find a resolution to the Palestine/Israel conflict. Here we are, no Arabs or Israelis among us (I'm guessing about the latter), bickering and throwing out all the old arguments that have been said over and over again. Blah.
Even more reason for the US to back away and let each side deal with their issues on their own. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
Reallly? How much does it cost Israel to maintain it's military, which is necessary because that nations military is in a constant state of war due to terrorists and there state sponsors.
You have that, the reconstruction, and keeping Israel's economy floating in the wake of terror..Look what 9-11 did to the US economy..now imagine ISrael..what would her economy be like without any aid? |
Israel's biggest expense is its military. I don't recall the exact numbers, but the % of its budget devoted to the military is very high.
Perhaps if it didn't go into Gaza so much, it wouldn't be as expensive. Maybe if settlements were not built, more money could be directed towards protecting Israelis in the internationally recognized areas of Israel.
Why should my tax money go towards helping some religous nuts live amongst people who want to kill them?
And yes, I know American aid is not allowed to go towards things such as settlements or their defense, but our money allows Israel to divert its own resources towards them. |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
Reallly? How much does it cost Israel to maintain it's military, which is necessary because that nations military is in a constant state of war due to terrorists and there state sponsors.
You have that, the reconstruction, and keeping Israel's economy floating in the wake of terror..Look what 9-11 did to the US economy..now imagine ISrael..what would her economy be like without any aid? |
Israel's biggest expense is its military. I don't recall the exact numbers, but the % of its budget devoted to the military is very high.
Perhaps if it didn't go into Gaza so much, it wouldn't be as expensive. Maybe if settlements were not built, more money could be directed towards protecting Israelis in the internationally recognized areas of Israel.
Why should my tax money go towards helping some religous nuts live amongst people who want to kill them?
And yes, I know American aid is not allowed to go towards things such as settlements or their defense, but our money allows Israel to divert its own resources towards them. |
I guess you live under a rock. On The gaza thing, Israel withdrew, gave Gaza to the PLO and even kicked out all the setllers... but Hamas began to use Gaza for attacks..Maybe, maybe, Israel woudnt have to go into Gaza if Hamas would knock it off?
Irael gives and gives, land for peace, land for peace, but never do the arabs.
The more land Israel gives, the more land they use to attack israel.
The world can not expect Israel to sit on it's hands.
2000- Israel withdraws from Lebanon after Arab demands...and what does Israel get in return> A terrorist army, hezbollah fills the place and uses it to launch attacks!
If it was any other nation no one would complain. If Mexican terrorists attacked US targets from mexico, and the government of Mexico didn't stop them and condoned them , no one would complain about the US going into Mexico to nab them.
Why should Israel be any further restrained?
Our tax mobey is gspent on a good cause. Israel has a right to exist.
Israel ha salso accepted the 2 state solution. Like I said in 2000 Israel made the best offer ever made in this conflict. Gaza, west bank, and half of the holy city of Jerusalem for a Palestinian state. It was everything Arafat demanded. But he turned it down and had his forces do the whole intifada thing.
The problem here is one side is willing to accept co existence and peace with the other. It even offered to give up so much for it.
The otherside, truly, wants nothing more then to exterminate the other side, and uses terrorists, terror groups, all with Arab state sponsors to do this. No matter how much Israel gives, she continues to suffer. |
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