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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| I don[']t think it would have prompted me to immediately shoot to kill. |
I do not think we can be sure at all that the suspect mentioned his gun and then the officers immediately shot.
Perhaps I should watch the police briefing again, as their spokesman does mention specific timeframes.
Finally, you mention "shot to kill." There is no other kind of shooting, Satori. Shooting is deadly force, you aim for center mass, and you shoot until your target is down and not getting up anymore. If you have time to doubt doing this, then you are probably not justified in shooting, as you must have other options open to you.
We need to unlearn everything that police dramas have "taught" us about firearms...
| Satori wrote: |
| If we're talking protocol, don't they have to see a gun or at least see you going for a gun ( excluding the fleeing situation )? |
It is a fast-paced, high-risk, highly-subjective decision. Far easier to second-guess than to actually be there. I went through FATS simulations (they are especially challenging at night, the environment I think these officers operated in) as a Marine and while in casino surveillance, and I can tell you that you are always more unsure than you are sure about deadly force. But if you feel time is working against you (that you will die unless you shoot) and that there is no other option, chances are, most grand juries will deem your shooting "clean" -- as I think, tragic though the situation is, this shooting will likely be deemed.
Still, I have reservations about their shooting at a vehicle, and I am not entirely sure about this yet...
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Finally, you mention "shot to kill." There is no other kind of shooting, Satori. Shooting is deadly force, you aim for center mass, and you shoot until your target is down and not getting up anymore. If you have time to doubt doing this, then you are probably not justified in shooting, as you must have other options open to you.
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As far as I know, this is true. When cops are forced to shoot, it is to kill. |
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ChuckECheese
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
Finally, you mention "shot to kill." There is no other kind of shooting, Satori. Shooting is deadly force, you aim for center mass, and you shoot until your target is down and not getting up anymore. If you have time to doubt doing this, then you are probably not justified in shooting, as you must have other options open to you.
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As far as I know, this is true. When cops are forced to shoot, it is to kill. |
It prevents law suits and saves lots of tax dollar. And it also prevents revenge on cops and their family. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ChuckECheese wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
Finally, you mention "shot to kill." There is no other kind of shooting, Satori. Shooting is deadly force, you aim for center mass, and you shoot until your target is down and not getting up anymore. If you have time to doubt doing this, then you are probably not justified in shooting, as you must have other options open to you.
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As far as I know, this is true. When cops are forced to shoot, it is to kill. |
It prevents law suits and saves lots of tax dollar. And it also prevents revenge on cops and their family. |
What about the Punisher??? |
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JeJuJitsu
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Location: McDonald's
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
Sounds like they were armed with a very fierce automobile.
Striking first the undercover Sedan and then striking twice at the van.
If someone were repeatedly ramming you with a car...........
Sounds like the wedding party was armed with a deadly weapon and using it. The automobile is a particularly deadly weapon when operated by a drunk driver.
cbc |
You're a failed wanna-be cop, ain't you?
BTW. I f u king hate cops. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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If you fire a weapon shoot to kill.
Period.
Never point a weapon a something you don't intend to kill!
Exclaimation!
At close range first shot to the head next two center mass, repeat if necessary.
cbc |
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ChuckECheese
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
If you fire a weapon shoot to kill.
Period.
Never point a weapon a something you don't intend to kill!
Exclaimation!
At close range first shot to the head next two center mass, repeat if necessary.
cbc |
My daddy said and taught me the same thing when I was 10. Aim to shoot, but not to show off. If you just show off, you'll end up shot and dead.  |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
If you fire a weapon shoot to kill.
Period.
Never point a weapon a something you don't intend to kill!
Exclaimation!
At close range first shot to the head next two center mass, repeat if necessary.
cbc |
Are you giving advice to a civilian or a cop? That is not police protocol by the way. There are situations where a cop draws and aims a weapon but does not have a go ahead to fire. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| There is no other kind of shooting, Satori. Shooting is deadly force, you aim for center mass, and you shoot until your target is down and not getting up anymore. If you have time to doubt doing this, then you are probably not justified in shooting, as you must have other options open to you. |
How sure are you about this? Im not sure. I dont know exactly what cops are taught. I do know that thier brief is to preserve life, even the lives of those doing wrong, unless absolutely necessasry, ie either the cops or someone else is in direct danger of being seriously injured or killed. Like I said, I dont really know, but I can imagine a situation where it would be more appropriate to shoot for the shoulders or legs to take someone down. For example the suspect has a gun, but is not shooting, and is in fact running away.
This situation is missing some serious details. I dont even know what prompted the guys to ram the cop the first time. I`ve not doubt they are unsavoury characters, but I still find it hard to believe that out of the blue some guys on a bachelor bash just spontaneously thought it would round out thier night of revelry to just ram a civilian ( plain clothes so they didnt know it was a cop ) with a car for laughs. We need to know how this was all started and what the motivations were.
I remain skeptical that the cops were in mortal danger and the use of deadly force was the only way out of this situation. And thing stands out, the night club was obviously a place where illicit things go on, however it`s not rational or fair to make every person who comes out of the place a suspect. No doubt plenty of people do just use the club in the normal way. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:09 am Post subject: |
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i suppose this will go down in history as the "wedding day massacre". kind of bizarre, and something faintly amusing about it in a twisted way. It'd be a good subject for a gangster movie of some kind.  |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| i suppose this will go down in history as the "wedding day massacre". kind of bizarre, and something faintly amusing about it in a twisted way. It'd be a good subject for a gangster movie of some kind. |
The trigger happy "good guys" strike again  |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
The trigger happy "good guys" strike again |
Are you a 100% perfect good guy IGTG? |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
If you fire a weapon shoot to kill.
Period.
Never point a weapon a something you don't intend to kill!
Exclaimation!
At close range first shot to the head next two center mass, repeat if necessary.
cbc |
This is so far fetched its not even funny. unless it is war it is NOT SHOOT TO KILL.
It is shoot to stop.
If I have to shoot someone I shoot until they stop. If one bullet strikes them, and they go down, I stop shooting. If they are still alive, but incapacitated on the ground, I dont shoot them further to kill them.
This is all part of what is known as the deadly force continum, taught to members of the US military who stand armed watches. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: |
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deleted
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
| cbclark4 wrote: |
If you fire a weapon shoot to kill.
Period.
Never point a weapon a something you don't intend to kill!
Exclaimation!
At close range first shot to the head next two center mass, repeat if necessary.
cbc |
This is so far fetched its not even funny. unless it is war it is NOT SHOOT TO KILL.
It is shoot to stop.
If I have to shoot someone I shoot until they stop. If one bullet strikes them, and they go down, I stop shooting. If they are still alive, but incapacitated on the ground, I dont shoot them further to kill them.
This is all part of what is known as the deadly force continum, taught to members of the US military who stand armed watches. |
In the scenario above it is hoped that the target will be down when the shooting is complete. Every shot is deadly, potentially. Of course once down the shooting should cease. The 1-2-3 shot method is effective and if properly discharged at maximum firing rate, i don't think gravity can keep up with the maximum firing rate.
I don't trust the stopping power of a single 9mil round.
cbc
cbc |
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