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nautilus

Joined: 26 Nov 2005 Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| Better safe then sorry, its a human safety issue, sorry they gotta go. |
You're probably more likely to spread bird flu than the average cat, you do realise? maybe we should start the extermination at home. |
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laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005 Location: somewhere in Korea
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| red dog wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| red dog wrote: |
| And it's another reason that no decent person should even consider supporting animal agriculture. |
It is horrible. But the burning of the birds and animal agriculture have nothing to do with eachother. Obviously, burning the birds meant there was not going to be any chicken to harvest (agriculture). |
Not raising animals for slaughter at all means diseases like avian flu won't break out in the first place, and there will be no reason or excuse for this kind of horrific cruelty. |
There won't be any breakouts among the animal population? Are you sure about that? If animal agriculture is kept safe and well regulated, why not? It seems the plant based agriculture could actually use more regulation, considering almost all the peopel getting sick recently has been by plants (spinach for one). |
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Octavius Hite

Joined: 28 Jan 2004 Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:59 am Post subject: |
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nautilus wrote:
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| You're probably more likely to spread bird flu than the average cat, you do realise? maybe we should start the extermination at home. |
It's that sentiment that gives conservatives the ammunition necessary to discredit animal rights and environmental groups as whack jobs. Thanks for further harming the movement. |
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red dog

Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
nautilus wrote:
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| You're probably more likely to spread bird flu than the average cat, you do realise? maybe we should start the extermination at home. |
It's that sentiment that gives conservatives the ammunition necessary to discredit animal rights and environmental groups as whack jobs. Thanks for further harming the movement. |
What you said earlier was in no way consistent with an animal rights perspective -- so if Nautilus is speaking from that perspective, I doubt you're part of the same "movement." |
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Grimalkin

Joined: 22 May 2005
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:27 am Post subject: Re: SK killing cats & dogs |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
very few if any experts agree that cats and dogs can spread the virus.
Peace |
This is not the same as this
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the experts agree that there is no safety issue with cats and dogs spreading the virus.
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I agree with Octavius Hite that Humans have to come first.
I do however bitterly regret the loss of animal life to ensure our safety. I would like to hope that the destruction of animal life could be carried out humanely however I think that's unlikely.
I also think that if stray animals have to go domestic animals should go as well. There's no point in doing it half-assed and why would domestic animals be more likely to be immune than strays.
I also (tho' a committed omnivore) think I should start rethinking my enjoyment of meat. I do think animals have rights (but they'll always be secondary to human rights in my book).
I tend to get fed up with the 'oh what a savage beast man is' attitude. Man is part of the animal kingdom and animals can be savage. We are what we are and we do try to curb our worst excesses as best we can. We often fail but we do aspire to be better and that counts for something. |
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red dog

Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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Here are some articles I received through a mailing list recently.
S. Korea kills animals to stop bird flu
By BO-MI LIM
The Associated Press
11/28/2006
IKSAN, South Korea (AP) — A 2-year-old dachshund barked chained to its dingy, wooden house Tuesday, unaware of its fate as South Korea began slaughtering hundreds of dogs, cats and pigs in an effort to stem the spread of the deadly H5N1 strain of bird flu.
The dog's owner Im Soon-duck — like many villagers — was more concerned about losing her three pigs than the dog, which was a present from her daughter.
"Dogs are good for keeping us amused. But pigs — it costs us a lot to buy those pigs," said the 66-year-old Im, who lives next to a chicken farm where a second outbreak of bird flu was confirmed Tuesday, near the site of an outbreak last week in Iksan, about 155 miles south of Seoul.
"We people in rural areas depend on pigs and cows for our living," Im said.
The government is to compensate farmers for their lost livestock, but the exact amounts are not yet known.
Quarantine officials began the slaughter Tuesday even though international health experts have questioned killing non-poultry species to curtail bird flu's spread, saying there is no scientific evidence to suggest dogs, cats or pigs can pass the virus to humans.
Since ravaging Asia's poultry in late 2003, the H5N1 virus has killed at least 153 people worldwide. Infections among people have been traced to contact with infected birds, but experts fear the virus could mutate into a form that passes easily between humans, leading to a human pandemic.
South Korean officials insist the decision to slaughter dogs, cats and pigs was not unusual and that the step has been taken in other countries without public knowledge.
Park Kyung-hee, an official at Iksan City Hall, said 677 dogs — bred on farms for their meat — along with 300 pigs were to be slaughtered Tuesday, and said stray cats and mice also would be killed. Another city official said pet "dogs raised individually in houses will also be subject to slaughter." He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the media.
A total of 236,000 poultry and some 6 million eggs will be destroyed by Thursday, the Agriculture Ministry has said.
The ministry plans to kill additional poultry within a 1,640-foot radius of the new outbreak site, about two miles from the initial outbreak location, but the numbers of affected animals was not yet known.
Animal rights activists criticized the government move, saying it had no scientific basis.
"The claim by the South Korean government that killing cats and dogs will prevent further spread of bird flu is unfounded and is a dangerous diversion of resources," said Dr. Michael Greger, director of public health and animal agriculture for The Humane Society of the United States and author of a book on bird flu.
"Indeed, no evidence exists to show cats or dogs play any role in the spread of this virus," Greger said.
Kum Sun-lan, spokesman for the Korea Animal Protection Society, agreed. "The government should know better about their course of action," he said. "It is unacceptable how they just move on with the extermination procedure without any reliable evidence for it."
Many villagers like Im — mostly elderly farmers — appeared nonchalant about the slaughtering of their dogs, who are usually kept outside in cages or chained.
Most of the dogs don't have names; Im couldn't remember the name her daughter in Seoul gave the dachshund.
Dogs bred for food are regularly slaughtered in South Korea, where dog meat is widely consumed, especially among middle-aged men who believe bosintang, or dog soup, is good for stamina and virility.
"I do feel bad that my dogs would have to be killed when they are not even sick," said Noh Jung-dae, a 63-year-old farmer who also lives next to the chicken farm that saw the latest outbreak. "But, if the government has to do it to prevent the disease, what can I do?"
Noh said he had planned to eat some of the six dogs he was raising.
The scene in the rural area is a far cry from posh neighborhoods of the capital, Seoul, where an increasing number of people keep cats and dogs as pets, often pampering them with fancy haircuts and expensive accessories. Pet shops are easy to spot in the city, where there are even coffee shops specially designed for pets and their owners.
In Iksan, some younger villagers raised concerns about the slaughter.
"It's just too cruel to indiscriminately kill other livestock when there is obviously no proof these animals can transmit the bird flu virus to humans," said 29-year-old Kim Sung-tae. "I have little puppies that are as small as my palm. How can they have the heart to kill those small things?"
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Associated Press writer Tracee Herbaugh contributed to this report from New York.
http://www.mlive. com/newsflash/ health/index. ssf?/base/ international- 3/11647428101203 30.xml&storylist =health&thispage =2
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Dogs killed in bird flu alert
Richard Lloyd Parry, Asia Editor
The Times
November 28, 2006
Fear of epidemic in South Korea
Action 'unusual' say health experts
Having killed millions of chickens and geese, the bird flu epidemic is claiming the lives of dogs and cats that are being slaughtered in South Korea to contain the virus.
Health officials in the town of Iksan, 250km (155 miles) south of the capital, Seoul, intend to kill 577 dogs and an unspecified number of cats after an outbreak of the H5N1 strain of avian influenza among farm chickens. A total of 236,000 chickens and 6 million eggs will also be destroyed, adding to the 96,000 birds that have already been culled.
At least 153 people have died of the H5N1 virus in ten countries since it was first detected among chickens in 2003. Virtually all those infected contracted the illness from the feathers or faeces of birds. It is feared that the virus will mutate into a form which can be passed from person to person, creating a global pandemic.
Some health experts believe that the killing of dogs and cats is unnecessary and will not impede the disease. “It is highly unusual, and it is not a science-based decision,” said Peter Roeder, of the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organisation. “We’ve got absolutely no reason to believe they are important.”
A zoo in Thailand lost tigers and snow leopards to the disease three years ago after they had eaten chickens infected with H5N1. The virus has been detected among pet cats in Europe.
“Other countries do it,” said Kim Chang Sup, of the South Korean Health Ministry. “They just don’t talk about it. All mammals are potentially subject to the virus and South Korea is just trying to take all possible precautionary measures.”
Most of those who have died from H5N1 have been in South-east Asia, especially Indonesia and Vietnam. Nearly all the infections have occurred in people who lived on farms or villages in close daily proximity to chickens or ducks.
A mutation of a virus is believed to have created the Spanish flu, which killed between 20 million and 100 million people across the world in 1918 and 1919. Humanto-human infections may have occurred during outbreaks of bird flu in Hong Kong and Europe in 1997, which remained under control.
258 Confirmed cases of bird flu in humans; 153 deaths
Source: World Health Organisation
http://www.timesonl ine.co.uk/ article/0, ,25689-2474510, 00.html |
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Demonicat

Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Location: Suwon
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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2 things:
1) If we are killing the animals around the area, shouldn't we also kil the hairless apes in the areas. People to people transmission of disease is a much more likely vector than zoonotic transmission. Forgetabouit, cats and dogs have almost no abillity to transmit viral infections to humans, they never have. Bacterial infections and paracites can be spread, yes, but that is not what we are discussing. I honestly believe that viruses are the antibodies of a sick mother Earth.
2) Reddie, if we quit eating meat or growing animals for food, what will dogs and cats eat? My cat would not be happy as a vegan, nor would your dog I presume. Secondly to you, what purpose would current agriculultural animals (chickens, cows, goats) serve in a world that does not use them? Wouldn't an abandonment of animal agriculture lead to a form of species genocide? |
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red dog

Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| Demonicat wrote: |
2 things:
1) If we are killing the animals around the area, shouldn't we also kil the hairless apes in the areas. People to people transmission of disease is a much more likely vector than zoonotic transmission. Forgetabouit, cats and dogs have almost no abillity to transmit viral infections to humans, they never have. Bacterial infections and paracites can be spread, yes, but that is not what we are discussing. I honestly believe that viruses are the antibodies of a sick mother Earth.
2) Reddie, if we quit eating meat or growing animals for food, what will dogs and cats eat? My cat would not be happy as a vegan, nor would your dog I presume. Secondly to you, what purpose would current agriculultural animals (chickens, cows, goats) serve in a world that does not use them? Wouldn't an abandonment of animal agriculture lead to a form of species genocide? |
1) Good points.
2) Sorry, I've been through that debate with the Bobster and don't feel like having it again. It's nothing personal. |
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brento1138
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| If someone can lend me a cage, then I'd gladly trap and "save" an alley cat in my area... I'd take it to the vet, get it fixed, and keep it for while I was here. Dunno what I'd do when I leave though... |
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Demonicat

Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Location: Suwon
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:13 am Post subject: |
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1) Thank you
2) Not looking to fight: what would a possible vegetarian feed to their cat? I have been considering the switch, but I can't imagine making the cat do the same. |
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nautilus

Joined: 26 Nov 2005 Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
nautilus wrote:
| Quote: |
| You're probably more likely to spread bird flu than the average cat, you do realise? maybe we should start the extermination at home. |
It's that sentiment that gives conservatives the ammunition necessary to discredit animal rights and environmental groups as whack jobs. Thanks for further harming the movement. |
What I was attacking was your apparent lack of knowledge about HN51. You are as they say, a "knee jerk" reactionary. And a troll too, obviously. Read up on the subject before you voice your ignorance. |
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Octavius Hite

Joined: 28 Jan 2004 Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| Mine is not a knee-jerk reaction, just a common sense/do everything possible to prevent even the possibility that the disease spreads. As for my knowledge of H5N1 I am a mere ESL teacher, not a trained pathologist, but I'm sure your save the cats and dogs cause they're cute policy is also based on fact. |
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nautilus

Joined: 26 Nov 2005 Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:22 am Post subject: |
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http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-11/02/content_5283058.htm
"Dr. Vincent Martin, an official with the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (UNFAO), said the spread of bird flu is mainly the result of the world's fast and unregulated development of animal production to meet the increased demand for animal protein.
Highly concentrated domestic poultry production systems, especially in Asia, are still using centuries-old practices that place humans and poultry in close proximity, he said."
-Clearly, more should be done to clean up the poultry industry, instead of the circus of misinformation and scapegoating of animals and wild birds that has characterised the H5N1 saga. |
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nautilus

Joined: 26 Nov 2005 Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| Mine is not a knee-jerk reaction, just a common sense/do everything possible to prevent even the possibility that the disease spreads. As for my knowledge of H5N1 I am a mere ESL teacher, not a trained pathologist, but I'm sure your save the cats and dogs cause they're cute policy is also based on fact. |
I never said to save cats and dogs because they're cute.
Neither am I an animal rights activist.
My point is, they should focus on where the cause for this lies, and that is with Asia's unregulated and unhygenic poultry farms.
Instead, they've chosen, sadly, to scapegoat and blame dogs, cats, wild birds, etc etc. |
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red dog

Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Demonicat wrote: |
1) Thank you
2) Not looking to fight: what would a possible vegetarian feed to their cat? I have been considering the switch, but I can't imagine making the cat do the same. |
I don't have any companion animals, but when I took care of cats temporarily I fed them conventional (meat-based) cat food and probably would have continued to do so if I'd adopted them. It's not something I'm comfortable with, but I have too many unanswered questions about vegan cat food -- although I've heard that some cats do well on it. My former foster dog was and is a meat eater -- I probably would have switched her over if I had kept her, though, since there's more evidence that dogs can live healthy lives without meat as long as they get the right balance of nutrients. |
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