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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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 Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Ddeubel: it's not just the assertion that I question, but the arrogance of your articulation.
Here it is again, in case you forgot...
| ddeubel wrote: |
| ...fact, the U.S. state dept looooong ago took Hizbollah off its list of terrorist organizations. Look it up, i don't have the time to educate you... |
I cited State's current listing of foreign terrorist organizations and I also cited a NewsHour doc. Both show that the U.S. govt considers Hezbollah a terrorist organization.
You assert that the govt changed this "looooong ago."
Show me. |
Gopher, DDuebel also insists that Hizballah didn't commit violence against Israel past the 90s. WHich I also showed to be a farse.
He also insisted they didn't rocket Israel. I proved that a farse as well.
Now hes saying Hizballah isn't a terror org. Go figure. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
Hizballah is number 14 on the list.
Interesting Abu Nidal (ANO) is number 1, I thought he was dead? |
This is correct, but we should clarify that this list is arranged alphabetically and not in threat order.
On Abu Nidal: my understanding is that we are pretty sure he is dead, but not entirely sure. He is probably dead. But like Sendero, the organization is probably still around and salvageable. Abu Nidal Organization, then, likely remains on this list because it would be unwise for Washington to turn its back on it... |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| cbclark4 wrote: |
Hizballah is number 14 on the list.
Interesting Abu Nidal (ANO) is number 1, I thought he was dead? |
This is correct, but we should clarify that this list is arranged alphabetically and not in threat order.
On Abu Nidal: my understanding is that we are pretty sure he is dead, but not entirely sure. He is probably dead. But like Sendero, the organization is probably still around and salvageable. Abu Nidal Organization, then, likely remains on this list because it would be unwise for Washington to turn its back on it... |
If its alphabeticlly why is Al Qaeda #33? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: |
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Because it begins with a "Q," that's why.
| NAVFC wrote: |
| Now he[']s saying Hizballah isn't a terror org. Go figure. |
Several govts recognize Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.
United Nations Security Council Resolutions 1559 and 1583 call for Syria to cease intriguing in Lebanese affairs, for the Lebanese govt to exersise full authority over south Lebanon, and for Hezbollah to disarm.
Kofi Annan has noted that neither Syria nor Hezbollah have complied with these resolutions.
It is also clear (see the numerous cites on the issue in the Wikipedia article I link below) that Tehran has been involved in advising and arming Hezbollah for years.
In fact, we have seen two significant political assassinations in Lebanon in the last two years: Rafiq al-Hariri and now Pierre Gemayel. Damascus and Tehran are the most likely ultimate culprits or underwriters.
And this is particularly significant as the Iranian regime continues to criticize the United States for "meddling" in other countries' affairs. Indeed, it is not unlike Venezuela's Hugo Chavez, meddling in Bolivian, Peruvian, Ecuadorian, Mexican and others' internal affairs and elections while constantly attacking Washington for the same thing.
If you want to argue these matters from a perspective that sympathizes with Damascus, Tehran, and Hezbollah (or Chavez, for that matter), and that does not sympathize with the United States, Britain, Israel, not to mention Lebanese sovereignty, be my guest. But please do not call me "a racist" for stating the above facts; and please also do not accuse me of "personal attack" because I point out whose side you are taking in this matter.
Perhaps these are concepts (racism, personal attack, etc.) we should all review to be sure we firmly understand what it is that we are talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah
Mod Edit: Edited for content. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
No matter who shoots in the middle east it is always in reponse...
Ad infinitum
cbc |
pretty much. |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| cbclark4 wrote: |
No matter who shoots in the middle east it is always in reponse...
Ad infinitum
cbc |
pretty much. |
difference is Israel only uses deadly force when met with such.
This current palestinian uprising, the current round, started when Ariel Sharon, a Jewish man, went to the temple mount, A jewish holy site (why shouldnt he be allowed to go) and the PLO got mad and started the intifada. |
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Slep
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| cbclark4 wrote: |
No matter who shoots in the middle east it is always in reponse...
Ad infinitum
cbc |
pretty much. |
difference is Israel only uses deadly force when met with such.
This current palestinian uprising, the current round, started when Ariel Sharon, a Jewish man, went to the temple mount, A jewish holy site (why shouldnt he be allowed to go) and the PLO got mad and started the intifada. |
Come on now, that's completely re writing history.
You've ignored the original violent confrontations which was the original spark of the intifiadah. Palestinians protest Sharons' visit to the temple mount/dome of the rock, a holly site for both jews & muslims where he proclaims the area as being forever Jewish run. Protesters surround a small group of soldiers (at this point, peacefully), soldiers fell threatened, shoot into the crowd and kill 13. Soldiers aren't punished and widespread rioting begins. Something like a million bulletts are shot in the first week of the second intifidah. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| thank you both for proving CBC's point. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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It traces all the way back to the little rumor about Ezra.
cbc |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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In truth I'm having a bit of trouble making sense of your post...it seems a bit garbled in places...perhaps you should edit it more carefully. I haven't got time to respond to you properly (not this week anyway) but I couldn't help but spot this glaring factual error:
| NAVFC wrote: |
| The first time is when Lebanon shelled Israeli cities in the 1980s in response to bombing of PLO ammo depots which was in response to the asssassination of a Israeli official by the PLO. |
I'm not sure if you realise the conflict began long before the 80s. Anyway, I thought I'd just point out that if you are talking about the attempted asassination of the Israeli Ambassodor in London in 1982, it is pretty well known that it had nothing to do with the PLO.
The British police and the British government both made it clear at the time that it was not the PLO, but rather Abu Nidal's group that were responsible for the attack.
Abu Nidal had been an enemy of the PLO for many years previous to the attack and the British police had found evidence that various PLO leaders were also on the attackers' hit list. But despite what the British said, the American and Israeli press went ahead with false reports that it was the PLO, and many people today still believe the PLO were responsible.
If my memory serves me well (and someone is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong...I don't have time to look it up right now) the actual pretext that the Israeli government in fact gave for breaking the ceasefire was an Israeli jeep being blown up as it ran over a landmine. Rather a trivial pretext in my book, but anyway.
This was after nine months of violations of the ceasefire by the Israelis, during which time they flew thousands of sorties over Lebanonese airspace and made hundreds of illegal incursions into Lebanese territorial waters. They wanted to end the ceasefire you see, and they were goading the PLO into breaking it. Unfortunately the PLO held fast and did not oblige...so in the end they had to wait for some other convenient pretext.
Anyway, I could respond a lot more to your other comments...but I really can't spare the time this week. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| Slep wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| cbclark4 wrote: |
No matter who shoots in the middle east it is always in reponse...
Ad infinitum
cbc |
pretty much. |
difference is Israel only uses deadly force when met with such.
This current palestinian uprising, the current round, started when Ariel Sharon, a Jewish man, went to the temple mount, A jewish holy site (why shouldnt he be allowed to go) and the PLO got mad and started the intifada. |
Come on now, that's completely re writing history.
You've ignored the original violent confrontations which was the original spark of the intifiadah. Palestinians protest Sharons' visit to the temple mount/dome of the rock, a holly site for both jews & muslims where he proclaims the area as being forever Jewish run. Protesters surround a small group of soldiers (at this point, peacefully), soldiers fell threatened, shoot into the crowd and kill 13. Soldiers aren't punished and widespread rioting begins. Something like a million bulletts are shot in the first week of the second intifidah. |
This is my understanding of what happened too. I followed reports very carefully at the time (I was thinking of going there). Supposedly in a democracy, people have the right to demonstrate. Young arab men went to protest Sharon's (knowingly provocative) visit. Soldiers shot into the crowd killing a number of demonstrators. This is when the anger really began (as a result of the killings, and, as Slep pointed out, the official reaction to the killings, rather than Sharon's provocative statement). |
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Slep
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| To be fair to Israel, it was 3 young soldiers surrounded by protesters who got scared. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:37 am Post subject: |
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You assert that the govt changed this "looooong ago."
Show me.
Gopher, I stand corrected and was wrong. I admit when I am wrong. But I do recall McCormack (or maybe another talking head) talking about how Hezbollah's status was under review etc.....
NAVFC, you clearly don't understand the history of the region and I won't address your assertions because of such. You just sling mud and I suggest you brush up on your knowledge of the region.
To many others, I restate my thesis of "double standards" . I also restate my point that what most people don't like about hizbollah is that they are supported by a plurality of Lebanese, across relgions/faiths/tribes/trades and tribulations. I do not trust Syrian intentions but it is too convenient to label and stamp this on Hizbollah, they have nothing to gain from it.
Further, I do not suggest I applaud, cheer, or advocate the past or more violence of hizbollah. On the contrary. But I also understand the context (more than many others here) and how one will do horrible things when confronted with similiar extreme barbarity. Let's face it, we all would if we saw our own children blown up from drones above......
This is the point. All along. Essentially Israel is quite safe. It is for the strength of Israel to stop pointing the gun and foster peace. This is the only way there will be a real "tomorrow" in this land, Christ almighty.
DD
Finally through with millions of workshops , assessments and now will have time to filibuster. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:42 am Post subject: |
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PS.
About posting inflammatory and personal statements. I have no beef with anyone saying and flinging accusations, even personal. That is life, debate gets heated. I'd prefer if there was intelligence in the package but you can't always get what you want....once was sung.
I don't agree with banning UNLESS it is hatefilled. Meaning, it labels a group of people, a religion, a race, a country in some way as being inherently vile, etc.... simple isn't the case. Those who would follow second this emotion should have the facts behind them and most importantly a caution that it doesn't apply to all. If they don't, they should be tossed on the street along with their petty pretensions and insecurities.
I remember Joo even saying I should be dead. Didn't advocate banning, even as he made it as a threat. But if he said all DDs should be dead, I'd want him banned. .....
DD |
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