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Is "waegukin" a racial slur?
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mack the knife



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've never seen evidence that Koreans think the Korean race is superior to Americans. What could possibly be the justification for such a belief?


Whah?! You're taking the piss, right? If I had a dollar for every time some Korean said "Why you American greedy?" I'd be retired on the beach on some Mediterranean island sipping on a mai-tai right now. Americans=greedy=Koreans not greedy=Koreans superior.

I fully endorse the "Eyes wide shut" theory of survival in Korea, provided one is a single, white male. Persons of color, and women for that matter, have to deal with a whole other dynamic. Not to mention that those of us with younglings of mixed heritage simply cannot ignore the bullsh*t that surrounds us.
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jaganath69



Joined: 17 Jul 2003

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Homer wrote:
Not racist in its meaning but like many words it can be used as a racist slur.

I mean the word immigrant back home is not racist but it can and is sometimes used as a racist slur....


Agree (man I am doing that a lot these days) with the above. Language and context, people, language and context. The fact that a bunch of people teaching communication to others can ignore the fact that context is overwhelmingly important is mind boggling.
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rothkowitz wrote:
Teacher in the smoking room was re-telling a story and said "waegookin-nom",which I guess is the same as the bloody asian thing.


He is your co-worker and he spoke like that in front of you? That's outragious. My Korean colleagues treat me with as much respect as they do to each other.
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mack the knife



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The fact that a bunch of people teaching communication to others can ignore the fact that context is overwhelmingly important is mind boggling.


The term "racist slur" is incorrect as there are no "races". Sure, people say it, but that's because they're ill-informed and still believe in this silly idea of "race". Therefore, ethnic slur is correct. Let's get beyond "race" and start using "ethnicity", or the group you identify with. It just makes more sense.
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jay-shi



Joined: 09 May 2004
Location: On tour

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moldy Rutabaga wrote:
Farang, interestingly, seems to be derived from a corruption of 'foreigner'.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farang

One explanation for the origin of this word is that it is borrowed from the Persian word farang which means Frankish. Another explanation is that it derives from farangset, which is the Thai pronunciation of fran�ais, the French word for 'French' or 'Frenchman'. France was one of the first European nations to establish cultural ties with Thailand in the 17th century, so to Thais at that time, 'white man' and 'Frenchman' were synonymous. Others say that in the Ayutthaya period, land was given to the Portuguese merchants to conduct their business at "Baan Farang" (Guava Village).

In Persian, the word farangi refers to foreigners. It comes from the word "frank", meaning French. The reason for this is the fact that the French were the first European nation that helped the Ghajar Kings modernize the Iranian government, in particular with the establishment of customs, in Persian, gomrok. Long before English, until ca the 1960s, French was the foreign language of choice for educated Iranians. The abundance of French words in the Persian language attest to this fact.

By another account the word comes through Arabic ("Afrandj"), and there are quite a few articles about it. One of the most detailed treatments of the subject is by Rashid al-din Fazl All�h: See Karl Jahn (ed.) Histoire Universelle de Rasid al-Din Fadl Allah Abul=Khair: I. Histoire des Francs (Texte Persan avec traduction et annotations), Leiden, E. J. Brill, 1951. (Source: M. Ashtiany)
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PGF



Joined: 27 Nov 2006

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this thread facinating.

I've lived in San Diego, NYC and the "south". I've found intolerance/racism toward "foreigners" in each city. NYC being the most tolerant.

In southern California, there is great racism toward Hispanics by the majority. In northern California there is extreme racism toward Asians by the majority. In the south, well, you can imagine. I was in a grocery store in North Carolina a month ago and two hispanics were chatting in their native tongue and a black lady flipped out on them yelling and telling them to speak English! I could not believe it.

NYC was great because there really is not a majority/minority thing. The "salad bowl" is incredible in NY; I miss NY.

Anyway, back in your home country/city/town can you remember how people refered to "that Asian guy" or "that Mexican guy" or even "that black guy" with a tone that said, 'he's not American'?

I'm sure some people in your town were more enlightened and did not refer to foreigners in any negative way. But, in my experience, most people are ignorant in their actions when it comes to race/differences.

I don't think it's limited to Koreans.

I've seen it in Germans, French, Yugoslavians (back when there was a Yugoslavia).........etc.

I think the only difference is that an American/Canoodian, etc in Korea is the minority. I think everyone should experience being the "alien, "foreigner", "outsider" at least once in their lives. Hopefully, it builds character. In the unstable I guess it could make a racist.
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Pak Yu Man



Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: The Ida galaxy

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rothkowitz wrote:


"waegookin-nom",which I guess is the same as the bloody asian thing.

Otherwise it just means foreigner.


Wrong there. Anything with a nom or nyun is a profanity.

Waeguk-nom is "Fuking foreigner!"
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mack the knife wrote:

The term "racist slur" is incorrect as there are no "races"..


Of course there are different races. Scientists are reluctant to label people as being of different subspecies, but its probably a reality.

Many species of animals exhibit geographical variation in coloration, habits, even language / vocabulary/communication style.
Different races are fact, for the majority of the worlds species, including humans. For example..if you play a tape recording of a sparrow singing in London to a group of sparrows in Korea..they won't recognise it. It will be ignored- the sound represents a foreign language to them. However if you play a recording of a sparrow you recorded only 50 miles away, they will immediately take notice of it and fly over to investigate. Similarly if you introduced a lion from ethipia into a pride of lions in South Africa, it would be rejected outright by the locals. Probably attacked. Because its a different race..with different, foreign ways.

Not sure where exactly racial variation constitutes a new subspecies. Race is a marked difference and variation produced by a species living in a different environment over time. Of course races are still part of the same species and can interbreed, its just that one is more closely adapted to its local environment.

I guess that if caucasians lived in korea for several more thousand years, they would begin to resemble Koreans physically. Even if there was no interbreeding involved.

Its an intriguing concept.
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Hosub



Joined: 17 Apr 2006

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What ;[

"I guess that if caucasians lived in korea for several more thousand years, they would begin to resemble Koreans physically. Even if there was no interbreeding involved.

Its an intriguing concept."

Are you kidding me? By your logic everyone in North America would turn in to Native Americans after "several more thousand years". What the hell. How did you even formulate your idea this way and end up with this conclusion.
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uberscheisse



Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Location: japan is better than korea.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i like it best when i'm called "foreigner" in vancouver. the "holding-your-hand-through-the-difficult-and-scary-parts" lesson that follows is also fun.
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Hater Depot



Joined: 29 Mar 2005

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mack the knife wrote:
Quote:
by racial slur you could also mean derogatory term....


Again, ethnic slur would be more appropriate. If I call a Japanese person a "Nip", it couldn't be construed as racist even by people who believe in "race", because the Japanese do not constitute a "race" by any definition of the word. Since "waegookin" is aimed at people of many "races" (blacks, other Asians, whites) it also cannot be construed as "racist", as Koreans themselves do not constitute a "race".


You're saying that because you see race in a western-constructed way. Koreans have a different conception of race. Koreans are a race, Japanese are a race, etc.
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Mack



Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Location: korea

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In some cases it must be more convenient to indicate who is being spoken about by the fact that they are the only foreigner present.
But although I think all this stuff about us being outsiders etc is true enough, I don't think it is acceptable. The fact that many Koreans can not be bothered to do better than that is what makes it offensive. That is the point!!!! They cannot be bothered because we are just some "outsider". That is boorish behaviour in any culture.
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mack the knife



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You're saying that because you see race in a western-constructed way. Koreans have a different conception of race. Koreans are a race, Japanese are a race, etc.


It doesn't matter what Koreans, Japanese, etc. think. The evidence is overwhelmingly against the concept of "race".

Quote:
Of course there are different races. Scientists are reluctant to label people as being of different subspecies, but its probably a reality.


"Of course" and "probably" in the same sentence? Sounds like you're on shaky ground. Let me point you in the right direction:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race
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Mr. Friday



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Location: for now - WI, USA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a fascinating thread. My $0.02:

I suspect it boils down to how different the cultural history of Korea is to the crowd here (99% citizens of the Commonwealth or the US).

We've, culturally, learned a way of thinking about racism. In our case, our native lands are dominated by peoples that came from somewhere else. And, in the US, even imported yet another group against their will. The truth that 'racism is bad' is a foreground feature/lesson of our culture.

Korea, though, has always been Korean by massive majority. And, more power to them, they've held onto that despite the aggressive efforts in the past of China and Japan. For them, the insider/outsider distinction is much more relevant than racism per se.

Personally, I expect I'd react to _how_ Koreans refer to me and in what context.

My high school in SoCal was about 50% Asian, and most of that Korean, (I'm white); I expect to be bemused at first by being around so many Korean-acting Koreans when I get there. Wink
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mack the knife



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I expect to be bemused at first by being around so many Korean-acting Koreans when I get there.


You'll undoubtedly experience the same rollercoaster of emotions that we all go through.

Initial excitement=>Embracing the culture=>Realization you may not wish to embrace this culture=>Fear and loathing=>Resignation

One tends to oscillate between the "fear and loathing" and "resignation" stages.
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