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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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 Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Mack, have you been hit by a Mack truck? |
Nah, all limbs accounted for, but thanks for asking.
You claim the disintegration of the family is the primary cause of all the trouble in the black community. I showed you the information that proves you're wrong. Take it or leave it.
If what you say is true, we would see these same problems across all demographics as the family is "disintegrating" across ethnicities (remember that 37% number?) in America. And I included France because if 57% of their families are "disintegrating" then it should be a living hell over there, according to your theory. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Tell me "how my information proves me wrong?" Elucidate. Otherwise, I'm inclined to believe you're smoking crack.
And why would we necessarily witness th same phenomena across other subcultures? Just because violence and family abandonment is pervasive in the black American community doesn't necessitate that it occurs elsewhere.
I feel like I'm arguing with a high school senior.  |
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NilesQ
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:35 pm Post subject: perceived positions of power |
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In my mind this comes down to perception. Groups or individuals who are perceived to be in positions of power, privilege, or control over another are expected to abide by all rules and conventions of western society regarding cultural sensitivity and political correctness. However, the perceived "underdog" or less powerfull party is given carte blanche to behave anyway they they wish and all others are expected to allow it. This can be seen in the double standard applied to sexual politics. An all female school is a safe learning environment in which women can foster their individualism away from the social pressures of a coed classroom. An all male school is seen as an attempt to exclude women and keep the old boys network chugging along. Some people defend the Taliban as having the right to practice their religion freely even though the legal and social systems associated with it spit in the face of everything our western democracies are based on. A black man can joke about white men having small penises, no coordination, geeky demeanor, and lack of style, all while calling them honky, without people really feeling he is a racist. If a white man were to do comedy like that about blacks, it would probably be a hate crime.
Now these are generalizations, not documented instances. I am making obervations based on my biased position as a white male from a hyper sensitive society(Canada). I think it all comes down to your perceived position of power. If you are perceived to be stronger you must accomidate the weaker. Men vs women, white vs black(any racial minority for that matter), America vs any other country in the world. The bully is always hated. People cheer for the underdog. The problem is that the reality of these power relationships changes quicker than the perceptions. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| An all female school is a safe learning environment in which women can foster their individualism away from the social pressures of a coed classroom. An all male school is seen as an attempt to exclude women and keep the old boys network chugging along. |
I`ve never come across that perception in regard to high schools... |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
The "disintegration" of families can be seen across the board. 37% of all babies born in the States last year were to unwed mothers, many of whom chose that route.
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It isn't so much the marital status of the parents that matters, but if both parents are involved in the kids life. You are really mixing up different ideas here. You can have a divorce where both parents take care of the kids and you can have a baby out of wedlock with both parents staying deeply involved. You can also have loser dads who bail at the first sign of responsibility.
We cannot deny, just because it makes us uncomfortable, the real fact that ideas of masculinity in Black American culture are really messed up. I would strongly suggest that when an Asian/White/Hispanic family divorces, the likelihood that the man will remain in the picture is greater than if a Black family falls apart. Also, if a kid is born out of wedlock, I suspect that Black men are more likely to toss aside responsibility. To say this isn't racist, as it isn't a problem of race (ie: blacks are not genetically predisposed to being deadbeat dads) but one of culture. Black popular culture does not value fatherhood and ideas of paternal duty. But, I sense it is changing and that a wide and heated debate is occurring within the Black community. |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| Tell me "how my information proves me wrong?" Elucidate. Otherwise, I'm inclined to believe you're smoking crack. |
37% of children were born out of wedlock (57% in France), and a large percentage of those mothers chose to be single mothers (from the get-go).
Based on your allegations, all demographics should be affected equally when women choose to raise a child without a father in the house (remember, you suggested that "disintegration" of the family was the main cause of the problems).
Steve. You have been weighed. You have been measured. And you have been found wanting. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:26 am Post subject: |
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Mack,
So you are on crack. Guessed as much. Keep being in major denial. The self-appointed leaders of the black community like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson want you to do just that.
But don't take my word for it, since you obviously don't trust the Man. If you want to open your eyes and mind, you might try these books (both by African American males):
Shelby Steele, The Content of Our CharacterJohn McWhorter, Losing the Race
Aloha |
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spliff
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Location: Khon Kaen, Thailand
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| Is it okay for a black man to be racist? |
Why not, that's the whole point of it all....that's called equal rights and affirmative action. After all, I'm white and I'm racist...  |
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ChopChaeJoe
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| I think the whole point of asking if it is okay for another person to be racist is to set a precedent that, well since so-and-so is racist, me being racist isn't so bad. |
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spliff
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Location: Khon Kaen, Thailand
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:01 am Post subject: |
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Who isn't racist, to some extent? Human nature, actually! Traced back to the times when man lived in competing smallish clans. I'm a neanderthal..I'm a Cromagnon! It's the root of man's highest expression...war..  |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| NilesQ wrote: |
| In my mind this comes down to perception. Groups or individuals who are perceived to be in positions of power, privilege, or control over another are expected to abide by all rules and conventions of western society regarding cultural sensitivity and political correctness. However, the perceived "underdog" or less powerfull party is given carte blanche to behave anyway they they wish and all others are expected to allow it. |
Your basic point is correct, but the above is a bit of an exaggeration surely?
| NilesQ wrote: |
A black man can joke about white men having small penises, no coordination, geeky demeanor, and lack of style, all while calling them honky, without people really feeling he is a racist. If a white man were to do comedy like that about blacks, it would probably be a hate crime.
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But ask yourself this question: does it bother you if a black man says those things to your face? If it does, which I doubt, as it certainly wouldn't bother me in the slightest, would it bother you to the extent that you saying the n-word or "black b-tard" to a black person would bother them? The answer, I assume, is no. Think about the differences in reception between a black-on-white "joke about white men having small penises, no coordination, geeky demeanor, and lack of style, all while calling them honky" vs a white-on-black "n-word" or any openly racially discriminatory utterances re blacks.
Any white person who thinks the reception is, or can ever be, the same is completely mad.
This is crucial: it's not what races think about the other that matters, but how they view themselves. What people need to ask themselves is why blacks are more vulnerable to racist insult. Why is the n-word the most taboo word in the English language? A black American on Youtube calling for the extermination of white people didn't even touch me, whereas the other way around? Oh Jesus, can you imagine if a white guy goes on the record, in 2006, and calls for the reintroduction of black slavery, let alone systematic genocide? The receptions are different. Whites don't give a toss. Blacks do, big time. Why it's not possible to make me upset by making insults about my racial heritage or skin color, yet it is of the utmost offensiveness if inflicted on a black person, is key.
Blacks still consider themselves very vulnerable, still victims of white oppression. This is the problem. |
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The Hammer
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ullungdo 37.5 N, 130.9 E, altitude : 223 m
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| ChopChaeJoe wrote: |
| I think the whole point of asking if it is okay for another person to be racist is to set a precedent that, well since so-and-so is racist, me being racist isn't so bad. |
Why would you think that? |
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The Hammer
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ullungdo 37.5 N, 130.9 E, altitude : 223 m
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| spliff wrote: |
| Who isn't racist, to some extent? Human nature, actually! Traced back to the times when man lived in competing smallish clans. I'm a neanderthal..I'm a Cromagnon! It's the root of man's highest expression...war.. |
I disagree. Everyone discriminates to different degrees, but not everyone is a racist. |
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The Hammer
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ullungdo 37.5 N, 130.9 E, altitude : 223 m
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
| NilesQ wrote: |
| In my mind this comes down to perception. Groups or individuals who are perceived to be in positions of power, privilege, or control over another are expected to abide by all rules and conventions of western society regarding cultural sensitivity and political correctness. However, the perceived "underdog" or less powerfull party is given carte blanche to behave anyway they they wish and all others are expected to allow it. |
Your basic point is correct, but the above is a bit of an exaggeration surely?
| NilesQ wrote: |
A black man can joke about white men having small penises, no coordination, geeky demeanor, and lack of style, all while calling them honky, without people really feeling he is a racist. If a white man were to do comedy like that about blacks, it would probably be a hate crime.
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But ask yourself this question: does it bother you if a black man says those things to your face? If it does, which I doubt, as it certainly wouldn't bother me in the slightest, would it bother you to the extent that you saying the n-word or "black b-tard" to a black person would bother them? The answer, I assume, is no. Think about the differences in reception between a black-on-white "joke about white men having small penises, no coordination, geeky demeanor, and lack of style, all while calling them honky" vs a white-on-black "n-word" or any openly racially discriminatory utterances re blacks.
Any white person who thinks the reception is, or can ever be, the same is completely mad.
This is crucial: it's not what races think about the other that matters, but how they view themselves. What people need to ask themselves is why blacks are more vulnerable to racist insult. Why is the n-word the most taboo word in the English language? A black American on Youtube calling for the extermination of white people didn't even touch me, whereas the other way around? Oh Jesus, can you imagine if a white guy goes on the record, in 2006, and calls for the reintroduction of black slavery, let alone systematic genocide? The receptions are different. Whites don't give a toss. Blacks do, big time. Why it's not possible to make me upset by making insults about my racial heritage or skin color, yet it is of the utmost offensiveness if inflicted on a black person, is key.
Blacks still consider themselves very vulnerable, still victims of white oppression. This is the problem. |
But ask yourself this question: does it bother you if a black man says those things to your face?
No, it does not bother me if a black man says those things to my face. It bothers me if a group of three black men bounce my head off of the side of a van just because I am white.
This is crucial: it's not what races think about the other that matters, but how they view themselves.
That isn't enough. It�s also crucial how they treat others. Feeling crappy about ones self doesn�t give a person the right to execute violence on another.
It seems that whenever there is a discussion about racism it always centers on whites being racists. What about black racism towards whites? When I was in 9th grade I watched a black man savagely beat a white man while he (the white man) was holding his child.
My view is that there are a lot of blacks that are racists and they would love to smash a brick upside my white face just because I'm white.
Why can't we all just get along? |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| But don't take my word for it, since you obviously don't trust the Man. If you want to open your eyes and mind, you might try these books (both by African American males): |
Steve. You are so out of your league it's embarrassing. For every one book you've read about race or race relations, I've read twenty.
Here's a short list to get you started in the right direction:
Studs Terkel's "Division Street", "Race", and everything else by him.
"Native Son"
"Freakanomics"
"Race, Class, and Gender in the U.S."
"A Dream Deferred"
"Enough: The Phony Leaders, Dead-End Movements, and Culture of Failure That Are Undermining Black America--and What We Can Do About It"
"Black Like Me"
In short, far more insidious forces are at work than your nonsensical, false-correlation theory about the "disintegration of the family", which is happening across all demographics and, therefore, cannot be responsible for the problems we see today.
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My view is that there are a lot of blacks that are racists and they would love to smash a brick upside my white face just because I'm white |
No, they'd like to smack you upside your head because they perceive you as holding "the power". |
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