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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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 Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
| mack the knife wrote: |
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| Thats true: currently we have about 5 general working definitions of race. However for each, there are exceptions and overlaps. The mixing and passing of genetic material is perhaps more fluid than scientists realise. its not fully understood yet. |
Which is why the term "ethnicity" is more appropriate. It is quite easy for anyone to state their ethnicity (e.g. I'm American, I'm Hispanic, I'm Korean, etc.), but many people around the world probably have no idea what their "race" is. What if your father is white and your mother is black? What does that make you (besides mixed, which is rarely used for demographic purposes)? |
The concept of race allows science to lump in Koreans with all "mongoloid" asians. far from being special, they are no different really to Chinese, Japanese, and Mongolians. Maybe its nationalism that is the real evil here. |
Japanese have a notably difference genetic make up, as they have a significant amount of Inuit blood mixed with the Mongoloid... |
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hana
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Location: daejeon area
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimchi Cha Cha wrote: |
| hana wrote: |
| it's NOT a racist term. really. as someone already said before, the literal MEANING of waegookin, not the literal translation of it word by word, is someone from another country. |
As far as I see it, it is. The literal meaning of waegukin is 외 (外) - outside 국(國) - country 인(人) - person, 'outside country person'.
However, seeing as a person of 'pure' Korean ethnicity born outside Korea is not called 외국인 but 교포, whereas a child born in Korea of non-Korean ancestry is not eligible for Korean citizenship and is called a 외국인 not a 한국인, leads me to believe that in the Korean context of the word, 외국인 is applied to anyone of not of 'pure' 한 (韓) ancestry, regardless of their nation of birth. I believe it is a racially defined term in the Korean context. |
like i said, you cannot take the three words apart and define it literally in that sense. the term is originally chinese, and being a chinese person who has lived in korea for the past year, i know how the term is used (and i want to say that the same term is also used in japan). the people who teach english here always stress the importance of NOT directly translating from one language to english -- strictly because the meaning does get lost in translation. i know that racial discrimination is a big deal here, but trust me, a lot of people who use the term 'waegookin' or 'foreigner' have no idea that they are offending those from other countries -- it is a cultural difference as well as language difference. there just has never really been another way to say 'person that is not originally from [the speaker's native country].'
of course, if someone says 'waegookin' and then sneers at you, it would be a totally different thing. |
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endofthewor1d
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Location: the end of the wor1d.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| hana wrote: |
| Kimchi Cha Cha wrote: |
| hana wrote: |
| it's NOT a racist term. really. as someone already said before, the literal MEANING of waegookin, not the literal translation of it word by word, is someone from another country. |
As far as I see it, it is. The literal meaning of waegukin is 외 (外) - outside 국(國) - country 인(人) - person, 'outside country person'.
However, seeing as a person of 'pure' Korean ethnicity born outside Korea is not called 외국인 but 교포, whereas a child born in Korea of non-Korean ancestry is not eligible for Korean citizenship and is called a 외국인 not a 한국인, leads me to believe that in the Korean context of the word, 외국인 is applied to anyone of not of 'pure' 한 (韓) ancestry, regardless of their nation of birth. I believe it is a racially defined term in the Korean context. |
like i said, you cannot take the three words apart and define it literally in that sense. the term is originally chinese, and being a chinese person who has lived in korea for the past year, i know how the term is used (and i want to say that the same term is also used in japan). the people who teach english here always stress the importance of NOT directly translating from one language to english -- strictly because the meaning does get lost in translation. i know that racial discrimination is a big deal here, but trust me, a lot of people who use the term 'waegookin' or 'foreigner' have no idea that they are offending those from other countries -- it is a cultural difference as well as language difference. there just has never really been another way to say 'person that is not originally from [the speaker's native country].'
of course, if someone says 'waegookin' and then sneers at you, it would be a totally different thing. |
i think you're spot on, hana. i also think a lot of people sit around waiting, in desperate anticipation, for someone to offend them. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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The word "waygook" sounds like some sort of evil dwarf, or character out of star trek.
Run children, hide!!! here comes the waygook!!! |
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Sina qua non
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| hana wrote: |
| i know that racial discrimination is a big deal here, but trust me, a lot of people who use the term 'waegookin' or 'foreigner' have no idea that they are offending those from other countries -- it is a cultural difference as well as language difference. |
Let's restate your point a bit more clearly:
'Racial discrimination is big here. However, when someone here uses a racist term, it is OK, because their main intention isn't to offend.'
This is akin to a little old white lady in the Deep South who uses a term such as "negro" (or worse). But that would be OK, because even though the word is offensive, her main intention isn't to offend.
Offensive remarks are offensive.
Racists offend.
There is no reason for someone being slurred to just smile and say "That's OK." Offensive behavior isn't OK. |
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hana
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Location: daejeon area
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| Sina qua non wrote: |
| hana wrote: |
| i know that racial discrimination is a big deal here, but trust me, a lot of people who use the term 'waegookin' or 'foreigner' have no idea that they are offending those from other countries -- it is a cultural difference as well as language difference. |
Let's restate your point a bit more clearly:
'Racial discrimination is big here. However, when someone here uses a racist term, it is OK, because their main intention isn't to offend.'
This is akin to a little old white lady in the Deep South who uses a term such as "negro" (or worse). But that would be OK, because even though the word is offensive, her main intention isn't to offend.
Offensive remarks are offensive.
Racists offend.
There is no reason for someone being slurred to just smile and say "That's OK." Offensive behavior isn't OK. |
i dont understand. why do people find it offensive when korean people say that you are from another country? my point is, waegookin means 'a person from another country' and not 'outside-country-person/outsider.' the term itself is not a derogatory racial slur. this is about the language itself, and how native speakers of a language use their language -- not how non-native speakers interpret. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| hana wrote: |
| my point is, waegookin means 'a person from another country' and not 'outside-country-person/outsider.' the term itself is not a derogatory racial slur. this is about the language itself, and how native speakers of a language use their language -- not how non-native speakers interpret. |
Because we're all equally human.
If you're happy being tagged an "outsider" and left with all the negative connotations such a description is loaded with, then you deserve a medal.
i was listening to local radio the other day. A group of presenters were laughing hysterically how they invited a waygook to a party, but he had no friends/brought no friends with him. How unusual it all was, this lone foreigner left out because he couldn't understand a word of what was said around him for 2 hours...childish giggling filled the airwaves.  |
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endofthewor1d
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Location: the end of the wor1d.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
| hana wrote: |
| my point is, waegookin means 'a person from another country' and not 'outside-country-person/outsider.' the term itself is not a derogatory racial slur. this is about the language itself, and how native speakers of a language use their language -- not how non-native speakers interpret. |
Because we're all equally human.
If you're happy being tagged an "outsider" and left with all the negative connotations such a description is loaded with, then you deserve a medal.
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the quote you're responding to says quite clearly that waegookin doesn't mean 'outsider'.
i am a person from another country, and i don't feel less human when someone notices that. i notice non-koreans on the street. in fact, i often seek out the company of waygookins when i go out for a beer. does that make me a racist? |
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Sina qua non
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
| hana wrote: |
| the term itself is not a derogatory racial slur |
If you're happy...with all the negative connotations [the term waygookin] is loaded with, then you deserve a medal.
i was listening to local radio the other day. A group of presenters were laughing hysterically how they invited a waygook to a party, but he had no friends/brought no friends with him. How unusual it all was, this lone foreigner left out because he couldn't understand a word of what was said around him for 2 hours...childish giggling filled the airwaves. |
Nautilus shows in the second section of the post how the term waygookin is loaded.
Nautilus and Hana made opposite assertions, but only Nautilus has supported their claim.
Furthermore, the term waygook, by itself is just as loaded. Waygook denotes the IMF which is unjustly, and ignorantly, vilified by Korean people. |
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Sina qua non
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| hana wrote: |
| i dont understand. why do people find it offensive when korean people say that you are from another country? |
Because korean people identify Korean nationality as a race. The term minjok means race. But when we want to identify the whole group of humans that we would want to call "Korean people" to be more consistent (due to the Chinese characters underlying the Korean orthography), we would use the term daehan minjok as opposed to hanguk saramdeul.
Waygookin is racist because Korean people identify a hangookin as racially (read: "genetically") different from other people. For a Korean person to say that one person is waygookin is to say that that person is outside of the Korea race, and, vis-a-vis intrinsically inferior; subtle that projected inferiority may be, however. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| Sina qua non wrote: |
| Waygook denotes the IMF which is unjustly, and ignorantly, vilified by Korean people. |
Unfortunately, all things foreign have negative associations in the momogenous "us vs. them" society that korea is. Just listen to the voice tone.
Koreas process of gradually transitioning from isolated hermit kingdom to opening up to the world has been painful for them. not only have they been literally and culturally invaded, any inadequacies have suddenly hit the worlds spotlight. Foreign companies are viewed as unwanted competition, foreign people viewed with suspicion. A country that has been a vulnerable, virtual island for so long is extremely cautious about protecting itself. When you see yourself as the perpetual victim and underdog, anything that is against the outside world becomes justified.
The experience of foreigners in korea has been generally negative. Historically, but also today. If you're a foreigner stared at and sidelined all day long by a people you don't understand, all the while hearing the whispered "waygook' everywhere you go, the word takes on a negative feeling/connotation all of its own. feelings become attached to it. much like the word negro- originally simply descriptive, yet soiled by the experiences of history. |
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princess
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: soul of Asia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
A couple of weeks ago, I was leaving a hospital and the nurse showed me where to pay. I don't know if she realized I could understand her, but she said (in Korean) "Over there, foreigner." Not "miss," not "customer" but "foreigner"? I repeated the word in a sweet but questioning tone of voice and the rest of the nurses giggled. I think that was a bit inappropriate but I didn't get worked up about it.
It sometimes bothers me to be referred to as "foreign-teacher" rather than my name when other people are discussing me right in front of me.
For the moment, all I can do is just work on speaking their language more fluently so I can discuss the problem with Koreans and be seen as more of a "person" than an "outsider." |
Wow! I haven't had this happen yet in my 4+ years here in Korea. I don't think I would like that very much! |
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endofthewor1d
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Location: the end of the wor1d.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| Sina qua non wrote: |
| nautilus wrote: |
| hana wrote: |
| the term itself is not a derogatory racial slur |
If you're happy...with all the negative connotations [the term waygookin] is loaded with, then you deserve a medal.
i was listening to local radio the other day. A group of presenters were laughing hysterically how they invited a waygook to a party, but he had no friends/brought no friends with him. How unusual it all was, this lone foreigner left out because he couldn't understand a word of what was said around him for 2 hours...childish giggling filled the airwaves. |
Nautilus shows in the second section of the post how the term waygookin is loaded.
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nautilus shows in the second section of the post how the term 'waygookin' can be loaded.
| Sina qua non wrote: |
Nautilus and Hana made opposite assertions, but only Nautilus has supported their claim.
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those assertions weren't exactly opposite, as hana also wrote
| hana wrote: |
of course, if someone says 'waegookin' and then sneers at you, it would be a totally different thing. |
| Sina qua non wrote: |
Furthermore, the term waygook, by itself is just as loaded. Waygook denotes the IMF which is unjustly, and ignorantly, vilified by Korean people. |
here i'm not sure i follow you. the term 'waygook' was never used before the IMF? or do you mean to say that nowadays it's only used in reference to the IMF?
anyway, i think hana supported his/her claim quite well with this:
| hana wrote: |
| Kimchi Cha Cha wrote: |
| hana wrote: |
| it's NOT a racist term. really. as someone already said before, the literal MEANING of waegookin, not the literal translation of it word by word, is someone from another country. |
As far as I see it, it is. The literal meaning of waegukin is 외 (外) - outside 국(國) - country 인(人) - person, 'outside country person'.
However, seeing as a person of 'pure' Korean ethnicity born outside Korea is not called 외국인 but 교포, whereas a child born in Korea of non-Korean ancestry is not eligible for Korean citizenship and is called a 외국인 not a 한국인, leads me to believe that in the Korean context of the word, 외국인 is applied to anyone of not of 'pure' 한 (韓) ancestry, regardless of their nation of birth. I believe it is a racially defined term in the Korean context. |
like i said, you cannot take the three words apart and define it literally in that sense. the term is originally chinese, and being a chinese person who has lived in korea for the past year, i know how the term is used (and i want to say that the same term is also used in japan). the people who teach english here always stress the importance of NOT directly translating from one language to english -- strictly because the meaning does get lost in translation. i know that racial discrimination is a big deal here, but trust me, a lot of people who use the term 'waegookin' or 'foreigner' have no idea that they are offending those from other countries -- it is a cultural difference as well as language difference. there just has never really been another way to say 'person that is not originally from [the speaker's native country].'
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i'm willing to consider your side of the argument, but you've got to convince me that your grasp of the korean and chinese languages and cultures are above hana's, and you've also got to convince me that my wife thinks of me as a n1gger.
don't get me wrong here. i'm no bloodthirsty apologist, and i know that the term 'waygookin' can be and often is used as a derogatory term, but i don't agree that it's exclusively used that way.
if you're so desperate to be a victim here, opportunities abound. it's not necessary to dig this deep. |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| endoftheworld wrote: |
if you're so desperate to be a victim here, opportunities abound. it's not necessary to dig this deep.
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It's most strange to see caucasians behave in this way.
Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent. I can't remember where I heard that - possibly some chat show, it sounds so corny - but it's right.
People yearning for acceptance in a country as unbelievably insignificant as South Korea - English-teachers unqualified for the most part to teach in their own countries, of all people - here in Korea teaching English because Koreans need to learn English - really, you are to be pitied. You are truly insecure and what's more - this is even worse - you fail to see that your demanding of equal treatment by all people of all countries, no matter how sharp the differences in history and culture just because you're a mighty whitey and respect is owed to you, not earned by you, is not itself without social, cultural and racial baggage.
You're hardly neutral. You fail to accommodate other perspectives and this flies in the face of the bollocks equality thing you're inflicting on my beloved Daves. Even assuming all this is true, why should Koreans not perceive themselves as a genetically-different Han species? Give me some evidence that this interpretation of reality is worse, less true than the one that's fashionably outre in university lobbies in your Canadian province? Are you guys THAT pc that you find the term 'foreign person' offensive when you've flown 1000s of miles to teach a foreign language in a foreign country, and also look rather different to the natives?
You target liberal concepts like sameness, equality, discrimination, but it's you that's discriminating against Koreans for daring to view you as inherently not Korean, FOREIGN! What is wrong with foreignness? Is there no such thing as foreignness? Koreans - in the books, the encylopedias - are 99% Korean with a small Chinese population. Put crudely, this means Koreans have been shagging Koreans, and only Koreans, in Korea for quite some time. They might look like Japs to us, but then Koreans have had little genetic mixing with Japanese for quite some time and there's indisputably some homogeneity in both. To us, the view of a homogenous race, a distinct race, is weird as *beep*, because we're from cultures that promote colonization, immigration, movement, mixing. Koreans think the reverse is weird as *beep* and don't like to promote liberal policies. There is more than one way - and certainly more than your way - of looking at life.
You ARE foreign and this is what blows my mind: why do you not want to be foreign? Why is being an outsider so difficult? Why is acknowledgement of foreignness so offensive? Why are you so fucking whiney? Why has this reached 8 pages when it's been explained on each page that waegoogin is not necessarily racist? You say "well, I don't like it, so it's racist and they shouldn't say it!". Er, nope, sorry. We know you don't like it, we understand that now I think. The question remains.....WHY DON'T YOU FUCKING LIKE IT, MORONS? |
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Kimchi Cha Cha
Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: was Suncheon, now Brisbane
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:57 am Post subject: |
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I can understand endoftheworld's and hana's views on the word 'waegukin' but I lean closer to Sina qua non's and nautilus' views on the world. Although, the word seems fairly innocuous and manner of fact, and that the word is not always used in a derogatory manner.
I believe, however, if you scratch a little deeper you discover that the word carries more than its literal meaning.
It's my belief that it's another means of separate two groups in the world the 'in' Hangukin and the 'out' Waegukin. I believe that every time the word is used it's (either on subconscious level or on conscious level) singling out the person as someone from the 'outside' group, and all that that implies in an insular, protective, xenophobic society. So many times I hear the word used when I see no real use for the word used (eg. in school), and sometimes I can't help but think it's just used to reinforce the fact that I am an outsider. The fact that you could be born in this nation and still be called a foriegner, leads me to believe that it is a racially discriminating term which is used for anyone of non-Korean ethnicity regardless of their country of birth.
I think Sina qua non made an excellent point regarding the word 'negro' most/many people know it's original meaning but also know the history behind the word and how it is now no longer an acceptable term. Just like terms such as Oriental, foreigner, and alien are no longer (largely) believed to be acceptable terms in the west, no matter how innocuous the words' original meanings were.
To me, I find the word, whilst most of the time not offensive, used to highlight my and others' 'foreign-ness' and to reinforce the 'in' and the 'out' of this society. For these reasons, I believe the word is, under my interpretation of the word, racist.
That said, the word doesn't particularly bother me most of the time and I'm fairly thick-skinned so I don't really lose any sleep when someone calls me a waegukin, as I've always realised that in this country I am and always will be a foreigner no matter how long or how much I invest into this country. Hearing the word, just reinforces this. |
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