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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Nowhere Man: I reviewed the paragraph again from which you selected my quote. Then I reviewed it a third time.
I am confident that you are aware that I was citing Iranian immigrant views -- that is, Iranian-Americans in and around L.A. and other parts of the West as the representatives of Iranian thought that they are -- on Israel, the nation-state they indeed uniformly despise and want to see gone. The woman I am now dating off and on and her family and friends openly say they "hate" Israel whenever it comes up. The woman I am now dating indeed went nearly apoplectic when she saw a global map that articulated Israel and not the "occupied" lands she knows from the Iranian maps she grew up with.
I was not discussing whether a Jewish minority lives in Iran and whether this Jewish community has token representation in Iran's parliament.
Your refutation and professed indignation are not only unwarranted. They are also intellectually dishonest. You are bringing in apples and oranges and your handling of the facts is patently sloppy. If not that, then you are just plain dense and unable to read what I said in the context in which I said it.
Which is it?
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: ... |
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| I am confident that you are aware that I was citing Iranian immigrant views -- that is, Iranian-Americans in and around L.A. and other parts of the West |
Well, no. That's not how I saw it. I saw it as a statement about all Iranians.
I apologize in this respect.
However, the underlying implications remain the same.
Are you not using your LA/West connection to make a broader statement?
Aren't you suggesting that, since the Iranians you know feel this way, it applies to all Iranians?
Otherwise, I'm not sure there's a point in making such statements.
Again, someone points out contradictions in Iranian sentiment, and you call it whitewashing. Romanticizing.
Then, you tell us that every single Iranian you know is anti-Israel.
What conclusion would you expect someone to draw from that?
For that matter, have you shown any of these Iranians you know the sentiments you express in the "Why Iran has it coming" thread?
How does that resonate with them? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: |
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We have certainly had spirited discussions over dinner and drinks. Things like "good, then. If my country can be powerful and project power in Lebanon through Hezbollah, then I am happy with that" have come up once or twice.
And although politics, history, and debate are without a doubt a full-contact sport, I point out once again that we see words but generally lack tone of voice. I may speak direct. But my tone of voice is almost always conversational and dispassionate in person, and rarely, if ever excited. People do not "argue" with me because, in discussion, I am confident that they are confident that I at least understand and acknowledge their position. Perhaps our conversations would go differently, then, Nowhere Man, were we to exchange views in person -- just as civil and respectful as my disagreements with my Iranian-American friends go.
In any case, do the Iranian-Americans I know accurately and faithfully represent all Iranian views on Israel?
The truth is I do not know. Someone once said, if you are going to make a general statement, you need to count. And if you are not able to count, then you must admit that you are guessing. Perhaps I am guessing.
However, I am referring to a few dozen people. Their views on Israel, the nation-state, are so uniformly hostile, that I feel confident in my guess that (probably) all Iranians are hostile to Israel and would support destroying it if only they had the chance. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| Iran has serious problems with its legislative branch and human rights in general. No doubt. But it is not romancing anything to say that Iranian society is much more pro western and open then Americans believe. It can't be seen in black or white or even grey. For my money, I'd take Iranian science over American any day....they are leaps and bounds ahead in many areas... |
Also before I forget, Ddeubel: they are not "leaps and bounds" ahead of the U.S. with respect to environmental protection, not in polluted Tehran by any means, not according to the Iranian-Americans I know.
They are also not "leaps and bounds" ahead of the U.S. with respect to dealing with drug abuse and addiction and its related social problems. They are about on par.
If you are going to compare the two societies, please compare them honestly and not just selectively on this or that. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:19 am Post subject: ... |
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| However, I am referring to a few dozen people. Their views on Israel, the nation-state, are so uniformly hostile, that I feel confident in my guess that (probably) all Iranians are hostile to Israel and would support destroying it if they had the chance. |
Well, then perhaps you should take into account that some Iranians are Jewish. Probably not, eh?
And again, I ask: Do all Iraqis hate Israel and want to see it destroyed?
Maybe a lot of them still do, but there are certainly others who have grown tired of such extremism.
It is impossible for me to speculate about these numbers, but I feel confident in my guess that not all of any countries citizens feel the same way. I doubt I could find any country where I could comfortably make statements about "all" of the populace.
Yet you persist in the face of clear indications otherwise to suggest that all Iranians "are hostile to Israel and would support destroying it if they had the chance."
That, in and of itself, is extreme.
To add insult to injury, you take it upon yourself to assail people pointing out not a pro-Iranian, but middling attitude towards Iranians as "whitewashing and romanticizing".
In doing so, you've essentially flown your colors vis a vis Iran.
Here's how it comes off to others: You don't want anyone saying anything nice about Iran.
You call that "whitewashing".
Does Iran have as much "blood on its hands" as America?
That's a highly subjective statement, and, while I'm sure you could cite books that would support your view, I don't think you're proving anything.
As such, in making the statements you have, I believe you have no business attacking others as "whitewashing" Iran.
In fact, it would appear that you are coloring Iran with your own "wash".
And again, I'll ask. Have you expressed the sentiments you've expressed to the Iranians you know that you express in the "Why Iran has it coming" thread?
To me, that has little to do with being soft-spoken or congenial.
It would be interesting to hear what the Iranians you know think about your support for an attack on Iran. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Nowhere Man: first of all, can you not write in paragraphs?
| Nowhere Man wrote: |
Well, then perhaps you should take into account that some Iranians are Jewish. Probably not, eh?
And again, I ask: Do all Iraqis [sic] hate Israel and want to see it destroyed? |
Oh, I see. There is a minority Jewish community in Iran. (Let's also recall the nomadic tribes to the north that phase in and out of Iranian and Russian life.) So, sure, less than all Iranians would like to destroy Israel. Apparently what I said is way off base. Thanks for correcting me.
Finally, my original objection, again, is this...
| Reza Aslan wrote: |
| Iranians as a people are not exceptionally religious, certainly no more than Americans�indeed, I would argue even less so. There is no politician in Iran's parliament who can be considered more of a religious fundamentalist than, for instance, Sen. Rick Santorum or Attorney General John Ashcroft. Iran's President Khatami has never once claimed that God picked him to be president of Iran, as America's George Bush so often has. I would even bet there are more churches per capita in the United States than mosques in Iran. And few if any countries could beat the United States when it comes to using religious rhetoric in political arguments... |
One can humanize Iran and discuss the complexities within Iranian society that are often overlooked in the political discourse without centering one's effort on Octavius Hite-style NotAmerican comparisons -- and I realize that Aslan's style is more sophisticated than Octavius's, even if Ddeubel, who feels it necessary to reduce American technology, science, and medicine to something he would never use, is just as crude and indeed, intentionally inflammatory.
Finally, "flown my colors vis-a-vis Iran"? Yes, Tehran is Washington's declared enemy, since it seized the U.S. embassy and held hostage the American diplomatic corps and then engaged in state-sponsored terrorism.
Is there a way out of this? Can we mend the breach? Yes. But let's start with an honest dialog first, and without comparisons that somehow overlook that although W. Bush may be (and I agree, annoyingly) Born-Again Christian (as were, I believe, Carter and Reagan and probably others), the United States is still not a theocratic dictatorship that, for example, denies women the privilege of attending football games...
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher,
All I want to say is that I would prefer it if you didn't selectively twist and turn words and statements I make...........
I won't go through them but quit it. Please.
DD |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| Americans have to wake up and smell the pistacios... |
| ddeubel wrote: |
| America needs rewiring... |
| ddeubel wrote: |
| I'd take Iranian science over American any day...they are leaps and bounds ahead in many areas...As well as cinema as I suggested and also entrepreneurship, creativity in general... |
| ddeubel wrote: |
| I'd trust an Iranian doctor any any any day to an American trained doctor. |
| ddeubel wrote: |
| ...it is America, especially the administration[,] which is propagating and feeding the notion that Iran has evil intentions. |
Ddeubel: I have not misrepresented you in this thread or elsewhere. (Nor have I invented facts and then arrogantly and righteously argued them as you have, but that is another matter.) If you do not like my reactions to your lectures then (a) stop lecturing or (b) moderate your righteous rhetoric.
Try it and see where it gets you. Try talking about the Iranian virtues you would like to stress without casting aspersions onto the United States -- esp. when Iran lives in such a glass house as it does. But whatever you choose to do, please stop whining. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject: ... |
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| And again, I ask: Do all Iraqis [sic] hate Israel and want to see it destroyed? |
First of all, make sure you know what you're talking about when you "sic" other people, oh Master of Spelling.
Secondly, you didn't answer the question:
Do all Iraqis hate Israel and want to see it destroyed?
Are you going to answer that question, or just ignore it because it doesn't fit in with your cookie cutter statements?
| Quote: |
| Oh, I see. There is a minority Jewish community in Iran. (Let's also recall the nomadic tribes to the north that phase in and out of Iranian and Russian life.) So, sure, less than all Iranians would like to destroy Israel. Apparently what I said is way off base. Thanks for correcting me. |
No problem. It's really kind of silly to characterize popular sentiment in a country you haven't lived in where people aren't allowed to express their opinions. Unless of course, you have some source that I'm unaware of.
And what's with Octavius Hite? Hite hasn't even posted on this thread, yet you're whining about him/her. Save your labeling and ad hominem attacks for when the person is actually around.
Finally, Rezlan is making a point about religion and misconceptions regarding the Iranian people. That's why Holocaust denial doesn't really fit in. But you're not listening to what he says because he violated your cardinal rule by bringing Bush into the converstion.
It would be interesting to hear what the Iranians you know think about your support for an attack on Iran. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And again, I ask: Do all Iraqis [sic] hate Israel and want to see it destroyed? |
First of all, make sure you know what you're talking about when you "sic" other people, oh Master of Spelling.
Secondly, you didn't answer the question:
Do all Iraqis hate Israel and want to see it destroyed?
Are you going to answer that question, or just ignore it because it doesn't fit in with your cookie cutter statements...? |
The famous Nowhere Man full-court-press, ladies and gentlemen. The only problem I have is that it transitions from Iran to Iraq without even the smallest splinter of a bridge and, as if that were not enough, bases itself on no small amount of outrage and indignation, exacerbated apparently tenfold because I simply cannot follow his line of "reasoning" where he prefaces his first question on Iraqis with no context, and in his usual "Do not wait for the translation! Answer me now!" style...
So, Nowhere Man, actually my answer to your question is this: I do not understand. This is but one reason I sometimes ignore your hostile line of questioning/interrogation. Is this an exchange of views or an aggressive deposition? Can you rephrase your question? What are you talking about? |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:41 am Post subject: ... |
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OK. The answer, after being asked three times, is that you're going to ignore the question.
And no, this is not an exchange of views. It is you nobly exposing the whitewashing, romanticizing, and apologia so we can get back to the more serious discussion of how all Iranians harbor evil intentions and, ultimately, have it coming. |
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