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Who are the Great Thinkers.....?
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "need of human society" is explicitly stated in the final sentence of the brief passage I quoted from the preface of the 30 volume Srimad Bhagavatam, the translation and explication of which was Bhaktivedanta Swami's main literary lifework.

There is need of a clue as to how humanity can become one in peace, friendship and prosperity with a common cause. Srimad-Bhagavatam will fill this need, for it is a cultural presentation for the respiritualization of the entire human society... http://www.prabhupadaconnect.com/Bhagavatam_Preface.html

Although it deals with fantastic topics and remote settings in time and space (and beyond) it is not written from a mystical perspective (typically described as "mumbo-jumbo" by critics ...) It's a devotional approach to the end of knowledge, the only way to understand the Absolute Truth - who remains forever elusive to empirical approaches...

The fact that the writing style, language and structure are a little peculiar is because he was not a native English speaker (though disciples polished it up as far as possible without changing the meaning ...)

Here are a couple brief reviews by scholars:

"This is a work to be treasured. No one of whatever faith or philosophical persuasion who reads these books with an open mind can fail to be both moved and impressed." .
Dr. Garry Gelade, Professor of Psychology
Oxford University
.

"It has been my great pleasure recently to have read the Srimad-Bhagavatam in the superb edition authorized by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. I am sure this monumental work will go far to bring the sublime message of the Bhagavatam to numerous Westerners who otherwise would miss this opportunity." .
Dr. Alex Wayman, Professor of Sanskrit
Columbia University


http://www.prabhupadaconnect.com/Prabhupadas_Books.html
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Zoobot



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"he [Nietzsche] doesn't even get taught in American schools"

WHAT???!!!!

I thought the only thing the american academy was screwing up majorly was cultural studies a la Raymond Williams and Stuart Hall. Despite the cachet of having certain American degrees here, I'm glad I'm not going to school there.

Nietzsche is one of the greatest thinkers ever, period. A giant among men. A man among syncophants.


Last edited by Zoobot on Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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ddeubel



Joined: 20 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad that Nietzsche gets his well deserved praise, especially given he was a lover of fate......amor fati . I was also glad to see Alan Watts' name mentioned, he doesn't get the accolades he deserves these days, anymore. Not for his great new ideas but for his synthesis and synopsis of thought....

For me, the Adorno of the mid and late 20th century would be Koestler and Huxley. Both men wrote in many genres, were versed in many languages and cultural traditions, were scientists, humanists, novelists, political pundits and just had minds as dense as black holes......

I would also say that I am partial to Colin Wilson. He doesn't get much mention but he too really roamed everywhere in thought and mind. Criminologist, theology, philosophy, novels, magic etc...... George Steiner comes to mind as the American version. Also Kenneth Rexroth...wow , now there was the very idea of a thinker, who knew history and who was so fond of sharing with all who came his way....

If you read French, you might want to put Valery up there in the pantheon. Very unique and precise thinker. A thinker for the mind and the mind's sake only.

Those are my mentions....

DD
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seoulunitarian



Joined: 06 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:33 am    Post subject: re: Reply with quote

In the fields of religion, I would definitely vote for (1) Martin Buber and (2) Huston Smith.

Peace
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Ody



Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: over here

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoobot wrote:
"he [Nietzsche] doesn't even get taught in American schools"

so what?

3/4 of what i read in high school were books recommended by friends, not teachers. Nietzsche's On Good and Evil and Thus Spake Zarathustra were two of my favorites. i agree that to call his a philosophy of nihilism is to simplify Nietzsche's words to the point of completely missing the ideas he put forward.
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Ody



Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: over here

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ayn Rand's Fountainhead was one of the first books i read. it was an important one for me at the time and definitely helped to set me on course for the life i live today.

apparently she got something from reading some of the very same great thinkers mentioned in this thread!

Quote:
Born: February 2, 1905
St. Petersburg, Russia
Died: March 6, 1982
New York City
Occupation(s): novelist, philosopher, playwright, screenwriter
Influences: Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, Nietzsche, Victor Hugo,
Influenced: James Clavell, John Hospers, Harry Binswanger, Nathaniel Branden, Anton LaVey, Gary Hull, Leonard Peikoff, George Reisman, John Ridpath, Tara Smith, Alan Greenspan, Terry Goodkind, Steve Ditko, Jeff Britting, Sean D'Anconia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand


Last edited by Ody on Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Delirium's Brother



Joined: 08 May 2006
Location: Out in that field with Rumi, waiting for you to join us!

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cbclark4 wrote:
Satori wrote:
Quote:
Ayn Rand had written some great books about human nature, in particularl the supremecay of hte individual.

Come on, Rand was an absolutely terrible thinker. What a horrible horrible vision. And I think it's quite reasonable that she was and is pretty much panned by her peers.

Reading Rand like reading Engles, Marx, Smith or Machiavelli give great insight in to how people think. There is no need to agree with the ideas, but only to understand them. They are all as important as Gautama, Al-Farabi or Confusius.

Did you seriously just compare Ayn Rand to these giants of economic, political, scientific, philosophical and cultural thought. That's so outrageous that I don't know whether to laugh or cry. But wait, let's think about this clearly, eh?!.

On the one hand we have:
Marx & Engles who are the foundation and flashpoint of 150 years of economic theory and its critique; Smith being the other foundation.

Then there's Machiavelli's The Prince which has influenced at least a couple of centuries of political and military thought, ranking it up there with Sun Tzu's The Art of War and Maurice's Strategikon

Of course let's not forget the Buddha, who might be the greatest religio-philosophical thinker of all time; or Al-Farabi whose treatise on Aristotle, among other things, may have kick-started the Renaissance; or last but not least, Confucius, whose writings have influenced the cultural, philosophical, and political development of the greater part of East Asia.

Rand on the other hand inspired Rush's 2112. Wow, what an achievement!

Saying Ayn Rand is comparable to these giants is like saying my neice's finger paintings are comparable to the works of Da Vinci and Michelangelo. I won't even utter Rand's name in the same breath as theirs. So I have to ask, did you just pull their names out of a hat?

Ayn Rand is nothing more that a cheap Nietzsche hack. You'd be better off reading the original. Ayn Rand is the Mickey Spillane of philosophy. Oh wait, she praised Spillane as a writer of merit...I guess that explains everything; things make sense after all. Shocked If I had never read anything by Ayn Rand my intellectual life would not have suffered in any way.

peace,
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Ody



Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: over here

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Delirium's Brother wrote:
cbclark4 wrote:
Satori wrote:
Quote:
Ayn Rand had written some great books about human nature, in particularl the supremecay of hte individual.

Come on, Rand was an absolutely terrible thinker. What a horrible horrible vision. And I think it's quite reasonable that she was and is pretty much panned by her peers.

Reading Rand like reading Engles, Marx, Smith or Machiavelli give great insight in to how people think. There is no need to agree with the ideas, but only to understand them. They are all as important as Gautama, Al-Farabi or Confusius.

Did you seriously just compare Ayn Rand to these giants of economic, political, scientific, philosophical and cultural thought. That's so outrageous that I don't know whether to laugh or cry. But wait, let's think about this clearly, eh?!.

On the one hand we have:
Marx & Engles who are the foundation and flashpoint of 150 years of economic theory and its critique; Smith being the other foundation.

Then there's Machiavelli's The Prince which has influenced at least a couple of centuries of political and military thought, ranking it up there with Sun Tzu's The Art of War and Maurice's Strategikon

Of course let's not forget the Buddha, who might be the greatest religious thinker of all time; or Al-Farabi whose treatise on Aristotle, among other things, may have kick-started the Renaissance; or last but not least, Confucius, whose writings have influenced the cultural, philosophical, and political development of the greater part of East Asia.

Rand on the other hand inspired Rush's 2112. Wow, what an achievement!

Saying Ayn Rand is comparable to these giants is like saying my neice's finger paintings are comparable to the works of Da Vinci and Michelangelo. I won't even utter Rand's name in the same breath as theirs. So I have to ask, did you just pull their names out of a hat?

Ayn Rand is nothing more that a cheap Nietzsche hack. You'd be better off reading the original. Ayn Rand is the Mickey Spillane of philosophy. Oh wait, she praised Spillane as a writer of merit...I guess that explains everything; things make sense after all. Shocked If I had never read anything by Ayn Rand my intellectual life would not have suffered in any way.

peace,


so what is she? a good thinker?

beep off if you can't appreciate why someone would look up to her. who the beep are you, anyway?

i wouldn't necessarily class Ayn Rand with the greatest of the great thinkers, but i wouldn't fault or belittle someone else for doing so.
-particularly in the context of a message board.

maybe a reality check is in order?
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ChopChaeJoe



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went through a phase of reading Ayn Rand, and looking back, it's almost all terrible. Atlas Shrugged has to be the most boring sci-fi novel ever. There's not an original thought in the book. When i was a kid we were taught that when writing you should show not tell. But telling is all Ayn Rand does, she tells you what to think, there's no magic, no mystery, no room for debate. She is the law.

Robert Heinlein has a similar vein of quasi-Nietzchean schmaltz, but at least he's fun to read -- sometimes.


Last edited by ChopChaeJoe on Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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Delirium's Brother



Joined: 08 May 2006
Location: Out in that field with Rumi, waiting for you to join us!

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ody wrote:
maybe a reality check is in order?

If you say so...
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seoulunitarian



Joined: 06 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:56 am    Post subject: re: Reply with quote

ChopChaeJoe wrote:
I went through a phase of reading Ayn Rand, and looking back, it's almost all terrible. Atlas Shrugged has to be the most boring sci-fi novel ever. There's not an original thought in the book. When i was a kid we were taught that when writing you should show not tell. But telling is all Ayn Rand does, she tells you what to think, there's no magic, no mystery, no room for debate. She is the law.

Robert Heinlein has a similar vein of quasi-Nietzchean schmaltz, but at least he's fun to read -- sometimes.


Why do you classify Atlas Shrugged as science fiction?

Peace
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ChopChaeJoe



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:17 am    Post subject: Re: re: Reply with quote

seoulunitarian wrote:


Why do you classify Atlas Shrugged as science fiction?

Peace


New technologies, futuristic setting, death beams destroying cities....
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cbclark4



Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Delirium's Brother wrote:
cbclark4 wrote:
Satori wrote:
Quote:
Ayn Rand had written some great books about human nature, in particularl the supremecay of hte individual.

Come on, Rand was an absolutely terrible thinker. What a horrible horrible vision. And I think it's quite reasonable that she was and is pretty much panned by her peers.

Reading Rand like reading Engles, Marx, Smith or Machiavelli give great insight in to how people think. There is no need to agree with the ideas, but only to understand them. They are all as important as Gautama, Al-Farabi or Confusius.

Did you seriously just compare Ayn Rand to these giants of economic, political, scientific, philosophical and cultural thought. That's so outrageous that I don't know whether to laugh or cry. But wait, let's think about this clearly, eh?!.

On the one hand we have:
Marx & Engles who are the foundation and flashpoint of 150 years of economic theory and its critique; Smith being the other foundation.

Then there's Machiavelli's The Prince which has influenced at least a couple of centuries of political and military thought, ranking it up there with Sun Tzu's The Art of War and Maurice's Strategikon

Of course let's not forget the Buddha, who might be the greatest religio-philosophical thinker of all time; or Al-Farabi whose treatise on Aristotle, among other things, may have kick-started the Renaissance; or last but not least, Confucius, whose writings have influenced the cultural, philosophical, and political development of the greater part of East Asia.

Rand on the other hand inspired Rush's 2112. Wow, what an achievement!

Saying Ayn Rand is comparable to these giants is like saying my neice's finger paintings are comparable to the works of Da Vinci and Michelangelo. I won't even utter Rand's name in the same breath as theirs. So I have to ask, did you just pull their names out of a hat?

Ayn Rand is nothing more that a cheap Nietzsche hack. You'd be better off reading the original. Ayn Rand is the Mickey Spillane of philosophy. Oh wait, she praised Spillane as a writer of merit...I guess that explains everything; things make sense after all. Shocked If I had never read anything by Ayn Rand my intellectual life would not have suffered in any way.

peace,


If you don't want to know how people think then don't read them. Rand had something to say, you don't have to buy into it, it's good to read to know how people think. I don't like Hitler or Naziism but I read Mein Kampf it was boring and it s~cked, but I read it and I know how Nazis think.

Rand wrote some good books Atlas Shrugged and Fountainhead were bestseller of their time. The virtues of selfishness is an interesting read.
Dime Store Philosophy maybe but worth the dime.

cbc
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