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tiger fancini
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes
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 Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:07 am Post subject: |
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My position is as follows:
Imagine a football (or soccer, if you will) stadium, filled with 40,000 supporters. In said stadium, there are likely to be 200, maybe even 300 people whose sole intent is to cause trouble, fight, and spread violence among opposing supporters and terrorise the local community. However, the other 39,700 supporters just want to watch the game in peace and then head home. Which people are news-worthy? Which people grab the headlines the next day? Which people are referred to when the rest of world decide to talk about football supporters?
Do you see what I'm getting at? |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:16 am Post subject: |
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Dear Mods,
How much longer do we have to put up with this "hate" mongering ? That is all it is, this post does nothing to spur debate. Rather it is just another one of a continual spamming of discussion with his vision that Muslims are dirty, vile etc......
Enough of these posts, this obsession. If you have anything reasoned to say, it was said long ago. Now it is just a tired, Truman show. But the hate with it is just awful.
I can only wish that you one day, inquire into the nature of how you got to be who you are.....
DD |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Dear Mods,
How much longer do we have to put up with this "hate" mongering ? That is all it is, this post does nothing to spur debate. Rather it is just another one of a continual spamming of discussion with his vision that Muslims are dirty, vile etc......
Enough of these posts, this obsession. If you have anything reasoned to say, it was said long ago. Now it is just a tired, Truman show. But the hate with it is just awful.
I can only wish that you one day, inquire into the nature of how you got to be who you are.....
DD |
Dear DD.
I don't think muslims are dirty, in fact they are quite clean. But, I do think that we have a bit of an islam problem in the West now and I'd be happy to provide you with pictorial evidence of such.
I suspected that you would say just this, this time. You never really have anything to say about anything at all (unless you are talking about yourself, of course).
Nor do I hate. Pointing out clearly obvious traits isn't hate. But, why do you want it to be so? Why are you so bloody invested in the multicultural suicide that even the mentioning of islamic hate/intolerance/violence causes you to launch into a rant about the messenger with never a word for the truth of the message.
And how I got this way. I don't know. Maybe, I've got my eyes open and ear to the ground. I haven't bought the "all cultures are equal" junk. I don't know. But, I do know that with every crime of real hate that various members of the Religion of Peace commit, your silence speaks only to the pathetic, neutered world view you hold. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| tiger fancini wrote: |
My position is as follows:
Imagine a football (or soccer, if you will) stadium, filled with 40,000 supporters. In said stadium, there are likely to be 200, maybe even 300 people whose sole intent is to cause trouble, fight, and spread violence among opposing supporters and terrorise the local community. However, the other 39,700 supporters just want to watch the game in peace and then head home. Which people are news-worthy? Which people grab the headlines the next day? Which people are referred to when the rest of world decide to talk about football supporters?
Do you see what I'm getting at? |
I can see merit in your position, to be sure. But, I think you have to consider the truth that Europeans are not asserting themselves. You say that Europeans dislike mulims, and with that I agree. Indeed, nobody likes those who are colonizing their country. But, not liking and 'standing up to' are quite different.
But I'll take your example. What if the 39,700 are unwilling to even accept that the other 300 are even being violent (see DD's post above). What if it is effectively illegal for them to mention that the raping, bombing and rioting is happening? What if the mere mention of the violence by the minority only receives ad homonyms (see dd above, and all my other posts on this subject). What if the only people who are legally allowed to assert themselves are the 300? What then?
Unfortunately, I'm unable to continue this tonight (or, at least for several hours) but I'll pull up some startling figures regarding just how large the islamic population is in Europe when I return. Unless you don't care. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| Well, actually I've been swimming quite a bit lately. |
This explains quite a bit. Chlorine is not good for the brain. Please, for your own good, try to swim with your mouth closed. |
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tiger fancini
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| tiger fancini wrote: |
My position is as follows:
Imagine a football (or soccer, if you will) stadium, filled with 40,000 supporters. In said stadium, there are likely to be 200, maybe even 300 people whose sole intent is to cause trouble, fight, and spread violence among opposing supporters and terrorise the local community. However, the other 39,700 supporters just want to watch the game in peace and then head home. Which people are news-worthy? Which people grab the headlines the next day? Which people are referred to when the rest of world decide to talk about football supporters?
Do you see what I'm getting at? |
I can see merit in your position, to be sure. But, I think you have to consider the truth that Europeans are not asserting themselves. You say that Europeans dislike mulims, and with that I agree. Indeed, nobody likes those who are colonizing their country. But, not liking and 'standing up to' are quite different. |
Most of the English people I know that don't like muslims do not dislike them because they think the muslims are trying to colonise them. They dislike them becuase they are ignorant and racist.
| BJWD wrote: |
| But I'll take your example. What if the 39,700 are unwilling to even accept that the other 300 are even being violent (see DD's post above). What if it is effectively illegal for them to mention that the raping, bombing and rioting is happening? What if the mere mention of the violence by the minority only receives ad homonyms (see dd above, and all my other posts on this subject). What if the only people who are legally allowed to assert themselves are the 300? What then? |
In reality, none of these "what if's" actually happen. Not in Europe anyway.
| BJWD wrote: |
| Unfortunately, I'm unable to continue this tonight (or, at least for several hours) but I'll pull up some startling figures regarding just how large the islamic population is in Europe when I return. Unless you don't care. |
I do care! |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Dear Mods,
How much longer do we have to put up with this "hate" mongering ? That is all it is, this post does nothing to spur debate. Rather it is just another one of a continual spamming of discussion with his vision that Muslims are dirty, vile etc......
Enough of these posts, this obsession. If you have anything reasoned to say, it was said long ago. Now it is just a tired, Truman show. But the hate with it is just awful.
I can only wish that you one day, inquire into the nature of how you got to be who you are.....
DD |
State your case DD.
What exactly is hateful here?
That some one has the nerve to question the intent of Islam?
Explain the Moderate Islamic position on OBL?
Should Moslem women wear the scarf?
Let's hear something of substance from you.
Something other than how the mods should censor the things that you don't like.
cbc |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Alright TF, here are some stats. My position is that Europe is becoming more muslim, and as islam is a political project, this means that democratic Europe will necessarily become more muslim.
First, the bottom basics.
| Quote: |
The average fertility rate for Muslim women in Europe is 3.5 children. For non-Muslims, the rate is 1.4. |
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=300,000,000_strong&ns=MonaCharen&dt=10/20/2006&page=2
You seem like a smart guy, and I thus assume that you can handle basic math. From this data, how long until the population of typical European nation "x" become a majority muslim state?
If we assume that France is typical for birthrates on both ends, and the population is about 8% muslim now, how long will it take for France to be 20, 30, 50% muslim? Now, what if Euro birthrates decrease (as they are continuing to do so), and muslim rates stay the same or increase?
Now, if you say that the Europeans will never allow that, I want you to show me some evidence that they are resisting, because I see none. Also, if you think that those who oppose islam are ignorant racists, then why should the muslim future of Europe be prevented?
Anyhow, you get the picture. I could find more data, but I suspect you are going to reject it all anyway, so why waste the time. Instead, I will post for you the best artice on the topic thus far.
From the Glorious Mark Steyn, as published in that right-wing fascist rag, Macleans.
| Quote: |
If your school has 200 guys and you're playing a school with 2,000 pupils, it doesn't mean your baseball team is definitely going to lose but it certainly gives the other fellows a big starting advantage. Likewise, if you want to launch a revolution, it's not very likely if you've only got seven revolutionaries. And they're all over 80. But, if you've got two million and seven revolutionaries and they're all under 30 you're in business.
As I say, this isn't a projection: it's happening now. There's no need to extrapolate, and if you do it gets a little freaky, but, just for fun, here goes: by 2050, 60 per cent of Italians will have no brothers, no sisters, no cousins, no aunts, no uncles. The big Italian family, with papa pouring the vino and mama spooning out the pasta down an endless table of grandparents and nieces and nephews, will be gone, no more, dead as the dinosaurs. As Noel Coward once remarked in another context, "Funiculi, funicula, funic yourself." By mid-century, Italians will have no choice in the matter.
We are witnessing the end of the late 20th- century progressive welfare democracy. Its fiscal bankruptcy is merely a symptom of a more fundamental bankruptcy: its insufficiency as an animating principle for society. The children and grandchildren of those fascists and republicans who waged a bitter civil war for the future of Spain now shrug when a bunch of foreigners blow up their capital. Too sedated even to sue for terms, they capitulate instantly. Over on the other side of the equation, the modern multicultural state is too watery a concept to bind huge numbers of immigrants to the land of their nominal citizenship. So they look elsewhere and find the jihad. The Western Muslim's pan-Islamic identity is merely the first great cause in a world where globalized pathologies are taking the place of old-school nationalism. |
http://www.macleans.ca/culture/books/article.jsp?content=20061023_134898_134898
And here is the other right-wing fascist, anti-muslim paper in Canada (The Toronto Star) on the islamic future of Russia.
| Quote: |
Muslim Russians, meanwhile, are bucking the trend, with some communities averaging as many as 10 children per woman. The Central Asian states that traditionally send large numbers of immigrant workers to Russia also have much higher birth rates.
Since 1989, Russia's Muslim population has increased by 40 per cent to about 25 million. By 2015, Muslims could make up a majority of Russia's conscript army and they could account for one-fifth of the country's population by 2020.
If trends continue for the next 30 years, people of Muslim descent will outnumber ethnic Russians, says Paul Goble, an expert on Islam in Russia and research associate at the University of Tartu in Estonia.
"Russia is going through a religious transformation that will be of even greater consequence for the international community than the collapse of the Soviet Union." |
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1165099811123&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724
Last edited by thepeel on Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Well, actually I've been swimming quite a bit lately. |
This explains quite a bit. Chlorine is not good for the brain. Please, for your own good, try to swim with your mouth closed. |
Yeah, ok.
And your thoughts on why girls wear the veil in Europe? |
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tiger fancini
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Alright TF, here are some stats. My position is that Europe is becoming more muslim, and as islam is a political project, this means that democratic Europe will necessarily become more muslim.
First, the bottom basics.
| Quote: |
The average fertility rate for Muslim women in Europe is 3.5 children. For non-Muslims, the rate is 1.4. |
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=300,000,000_strong&ns=MonaCharen&dt=10/20/2006&page=2
You seem like a smart guy, and I thus assume that you can handle basic math. From this data, how long until the population of typical European nation "x" become a majority muslim state?
If we assume that France is typical for birthrates on both ends, and the population is about 8% muslim now, how long will it take for France to be 20, 30, 50% muslim? Now, what if Euro birthrates decrease (as they are continuing to do so), and muslim rates stay the same or increase?
Now, if you say that the Europeans will never allow that, I want you to show me some evidence that they are resisting, because I see none. Also, if you think that those who oppose islam are ignorant racists, then why should the muslim future of Europe be prevented?
Anyhow, you get the picture. I could find more data, but I suspect you are going to reject it all anyway, so why waste the time. Instead, I will post for you the best artice on the topic thus far.
From the Glorious Mark Steyn, as published in that right-wing fascist rag, Macleans.
| Quote: |
If your school has 200 guys and you're playing a school with 2,000 pupils, it doesn't mean your baseball team is definitely going to lose but it certainly gives the other fellows a big starting advantage. Likewise, if you want to launch a revolution, it's not very likely if you've only got seven revolutionaries. And they're all over 80. But, if you've got two million and seven revolutionaries and they're all under 30 you're in business.
As I say, this isn't a projection: it's happening now. There's no need to extrapolate, and if you do it gets a little freaky, but, just for fun, here goes: by 2050, 60 per cent of Italians will have no brothers, no sisters, no cousins, no aunts, no uncles. The big Italian family, with papa pouring the vino and mama spooning out the pasta down an endless table of grandparents and nieces and nephews, will be gone, no more, dead as the dinosaurs. As Noel Coward once remarked in another context, "Funiculi, funicula, funic yourself." By mid-century, Italians will have no choice in the matter.
We are witnessing the end of the late 20th- century progressive welfare democracy. Its fiscal bankruptcy is merely a symptom of a more fundamental bankruptcy: its insufficiency as an animating principle for society. The children and grandchildren of those fascists and republicans who waged a bitter civil war for the future of Spain now shrug when a bunch of foreigners blow up their capital. Too sedated even to sue for terms, they capitulate instantly. Over on the other side of the equation, the modern multicultural state is too watery a concept to bind huge numbers of immigrants to the land of their nominal citizenship. So they look elsewhere and find the jihad. The Western Muslim's pan-Islamic identity is merely the first great cause in a world where globalized pathologies are taking the place of old-school nationalism. |
http://www.macleans.ca/culture/books/article.jsp?content=20061023_134898_134898 |
Ok I take your point about the birth rates, but you are assuming that all of these muslims that are being born will follow a hard-line agenda in later life. Its pretty well known that many, many Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi kids who are born in European countries (well England anyway, thats what I'm basing my argument on, stuff that I've observed first-hand) feel alienated from their parents as they are growing up in a country where they have the freedoms to do things that other non-muslim kids around them do. I'm sure you can argue that they [i]don't[/i] assimilate, but for the most part I think they do. I've met many young British Muslims who smoke, drink, take drugs and don't wear scarves, but still consider themselves muslim.
There is not a great resistance in England, apart from racism, because the threat does not exist that muslims will implement sharia in England.
Anyway, I have to get some sleep now! [/i] |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:46 am Post subject: |
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Ok. It has been fun.
But, about your idea that Brit muslims aren't radicalizing. Well, you're half right, as about half are.
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According to a poll taken in 2004, over 60% of British Muslims want to live under Shariah--in the United Kingdom. If a population "at odds with the modern world" is the fastest-breeding group on the planet--if there are more Muslim nations, more fundamentalist Muslims within those nations, more and more Muslims within non-Muslim nations, and more and more Muslims represented in more and more transnational institutions--how safe a bet is the survival of the "modern world"?
If 100% of your population believes in liberal pluralist democracy, it doesn't matter whether 70% of them are "white" or only 5% are. But if one part of your population believes in liberal pluralist democracy and the other doesn't, then it becomes a matter of great importance whether the part that does is 90% of the population or only 60%, 50%, 45%. |
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760
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Nearly two fifths (37 per cent) believe that the Jewish community in Britain is a legitimate target �as part of the ongoing struggle for justice in the Middle East�. |
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,171-2028033,00.html
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* 13% of British Muslims think that the four men who carried out the London Tube and bus bombings of July 7, 2005, should be regarded as �martyrs�
* 7% agree that suicide attacks on civilians in the UK can be justified in some circumstances, rising to 16 per cent for a military target
* 16% of British Muslims say that while the attacks may have been wrong, the cause was right
* 2% would be proud if a family member decided to join al-Qaeda. Sixteen per cent would be �indifferent�
Nearly half (49 per cent) of British Muslims think it is offensive that some non-Muslims feel anxious if they see someone they think is a Muslim on public transport carrying a backpack. However, 18 per cent say that they too feel anxious if they see someone who looks Muslim with a large bag or backpack. |
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-2-2254764-2,00.html
If Britain�s Muslim population is 1.6 million, this means more than 100,000 Muslims would support another 7/7. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| And dd, if posting the stated opinions of British muslims offends you, well, you got have a good cry. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:48 am Post subject: |
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State your case DD.
What exactly is hateful here?
That some one has the nerve to question the intent of Islam?
Explain the Moderate Islamic position on OBL?
Should Moslem women wear the scarf?
Let's hear something of substance from you.
Something other than how the mods should censor the things that you don't like.
cbc |
cbc,
Please do a search -- I've been through it a million times before and have stated my case continually. Evidence, facts, debate. However BJWB just continues with the tired refrain of "we are all going to hell in a hand basket if we don't blow them all to hell.." fixation (and that is on jrs better days).
My main arguement beyond those enlightenment concepts of the individual and tolerance of religious belief ARE that Islam is not the characature he pretends and it is definitely not split into moderates, conservative, dabblers or what have you....it stretches the globe, comes in many shapes and forms etc....
What BWJD doesn't like is a whole broad category of diverse persons....that is hate. And his fixation on this topic, more disturbing.
He can take his apocraphal views and go elsewhere....they are of a disturbed mind, not in touch or traveled in reality. Don't need sources , just my own experience to back that up.
DD |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Alright dd, thanks for the slander.
I challenge you to find one instance where I have advocated violence against anyone. In fact, I can think of only one time ever, on this site, where I have been anything but anti-war and non-violent and that was on a thread where it was suggested that AQ and Iran were in bed. And I made sure to qualify that with an "IF" that was both in bold and underlined.
If you cannot find an example where I have said that we ought to bring harm to life, I expect you to apologize for being a liar.
Your quote
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| "we are all going to hell in a hand basket if we don't blow them all to hell.." |
Justify that, or apologize. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:56 am Post subject: |
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DD
It was you who brought dirty and vile into the conversation I just didn't see that in the previous posts. I think you tend to read way too much into what the poster is saying.
I saw Somebody got thrown out of a Mosque for critisizing OBL.
I saw women are being forced to wear the scarf and threatened.
I didn't see dirty and vile. You were the first to mention dirty and vile.
Let me ask bluntly do you force women to wear scarfs?
Do you support he eviction of OBL critics from Mosques?
Do you see a difference between moderate and fundementalist Muslims?
Do fundementalist Muslims support OBL? Do moderates?
cbc |
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