| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
|
Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
The reason they draft nearly every adult male is that it allows SK to have a large military at a lower cost. You see, these draftees are essentially unpaid. They receive a tiny monthly stipend, less than the average weekly allowance of a US teen. So, indeed, they are slaves for two years. If SK wanted to actually enlist a smaller, better trained, all volunteer military they would have to pay them, and that would be quite costly.
When peace comes and the Koreas reunite (well, if it ever comes), the draft can end, this massive waste of the lives of young men in the prime of life can end, and all that productive energy can generate a great economic boom, if, the socialist government stays out of the way. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jvalmer

Joined: 06 Jun 2003
|
Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ontheway wrote: |
| When peace comes and the Koreas reunite (well, if it ever comes), the draft can end, this massive waste of the lives of young men in the prime of life can end, and all that productive energy can generate a great economic boom, if, the socialist government stays out of the way. |
Most Korean men do their service in their early 20's. I'd hardly think that is the prime of their life. They're barely getting started, and most enter the workforce in their mid-20's. Which isn't too bad. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Mariella713
Joined: 22 May 2010
|
Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I don't see any problem with some form of mandatory national service for the citizens of a nation. It need not be military service, though that should be a option. It should also be unavoidable by anyone in the age range, male or female, poor or rich, white, yellow or brown. I think Koreans realize that there are quite a few benefits mandatory conscription brings, even though they don't like being parted from loved ones or going against their will sometimes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
|
Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jvalmer wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| When peace comes and the Koreas reunite (well, if it ever comes), the draft can end, this massive waste of the lives of young men in the prime of life can end, and all that productive energy can generate a great economic boom, if, the socialist government stays out of the way. |
Most Korean men do their service in their early 20's. I'd hardly think that is the prime of their life. They're barely getting started, and most enter the workforce in their mid-20's. Which isn't too bad. |
I knew some people wouldn't like that term, but ...
Although these men all are different, and in fact, for some of them military service could help them to grow up and have better lives, they are forced to do so for no pay, involuntarily. The money required to induce individuals to serve in the military could be saved and finance a number of opportunities, education, investments, small business that could lead to a better life for the individual, his family and for all citizens of the country.
Others lose out on early education or the chance to build their life and career. This late start means that they will end up two years short at the other end when they would have been earning their peak lifetime income.
Still others die, and lose out on living their life altogether.
And, of course, all this is done as slaves, involuntarily, for no money. It is not right for any country to practice conscription at any time for any reason. It is an evil form of socialism, like all slavery, where the state violates the individual right to liberty of a human being at its most basic. The fact that its temporary may reduce the magnitude of this crime committed by the state against the individual, but not the nature of the crime. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
chellovek

Joined: 29 Feb 2008
|
Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| It is an evil form of socialism, like all slavery, where the state violates the individual right to liberty of a human being at its most basic. |
Let's ignore all the slaves that have ever been owned by individuals, who bought and sold their slaves like they were private property. Slave markets I believe they were called. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jvalmer

Joined: 06 Jun 2003
|
Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I'm wondering how old you guys are who think conscription is a human rights issue akin to slavery? Seems like the young have been coddled a little too much. We've raised a bunch of pansies. Dread the day you're without electricity for 24 hours. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
|
Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jvalmer wrote: |
| I'm wondering how old you guys are who think conscription is a human rights issue akin to slavery? Seems like the young have been coddled a little too much. We've raised a bunch of pansies. Dread the day you're without electricity for 24 hours. |
Coddled pansies? Most definitely. But it still is slavery and its wrong. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Location: Retired
|
Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ontheway wrote: |
[qu
Others lose out on early education or the chance to build their life and career. This late start means that they will end up two years short at the other end when they would have been earning their peak lifetime income.
. |
Two years short compared to whom? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
NovaKart
Joined: 18 Nov 2009 Location: Iraq
|
Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Unfortunately, mandatory military service exists in a large number of countries. It's basically a source of cheap labor for many countries. The training is so superficial that I don't really buy the idea that it's protecting the country.
The whole toughen up the youth aspect is ridiculous as well. There are plenty of effeminate men who in fact have more willpower and discipline than a macho guy.
Conscription is also extremely sexist, though not as much in Korea since women are not as often treated equally. In Germany and Scandanavia they still have it for men only. Granted they can do an alternative service which from what I've heard is pretty flexible. However, the fact that only men are called to serve and given the position of women in those countries it's remarkably outdated and sexist.
I do recognize that some countries like Korea and Israel may have a need for it but in all too many countries, even when such an immediate threat doesn't exist, it continues to be used by the government as a way to control its population. I'm not talking about European countries in this case but places like Turkey and Singapore. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
noraebang
Joined: 05 May 2010
|
Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jvalmer wrote: |
| I'm wondering how old you guys are who think conscription is a human rights issue akin to slavery? Seems like the young have been coddled a little too much. We've raised a bunch of pansies. Dread the day you're without electricity for 24 hours. |
And why didn't those darn black slaves just toughen up and do their darned duty! They should at least accept two years of slavery. After all, that's not that bad and it's for the good of the nation!
I don't think slavery is appropriate just because you extend it across all racial boundaries. Nobody has the right to tell another guy that he has to give up years of his life in forced labour for someone else. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
noraebang
Joined: 05 May 2010
|
Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| chellovek wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It is an evil form of socialism, like all slavery, where the state violates the individual right to liberty of a human being at its most basic. |
Let's ignore all the slaves that have ever been owned by individuals, who bought and sold their slaves like they were private property. Slave markets I believe they were called. |
Free markets are predicated on the existence of individual rights. Slavery is supported on the basis that one group ought to sacrifice for some alleged higher value. Under socialist states, all people are equally enslaved for the higher value yammered as "the common good" which is ultimately a collection of certain individuals. In Nazi Germany, individual rights were violated for a higher good that time justified as a select race. In agrarian slave societies, individual rights (which, remember, are the basis for markets and capitalism) were again violated for the economic well-being and functioning of "society." In short, all systems of slavery and rights violations rest on the argument that some must give up their individual rights in order to sacrifice for "society." In that sense, he is right in finding a parallel with socialism. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
noraebang
Joined: 05 May 2010
|
Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Too much time watching hollywood blockbuster war and action movies and playing war simulation computer games combined with far too little time reading and understanding war, politics, history, economics and dare I say , the real world = the passage quoted above.  |
All of the greatest long term victories in history were the result of total war. When Sherman burned Atlanta to the ground, he crushed the will of the South. When the US dropped bombs on Hiroshima and Negasaki in conjunction with LeMay's firebombings of major cities the suicidal Japanese war machine laid down their arms without a fight. Not even a shot was fired in occupied Japan. The Romans only finally defeated the Carthaginians after setting Carthage in flames and laying salt so that no city could exist there again for a hundred years. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
noraebang
Joined: 05 May 2010
|
Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Koreans support conscription? |
|
|
| young_clinton wrote: |
A question for the OP: Don't they pretty much have to?
Why would anybody in thier right minds completely rely on the USA? |
I don't want Korea to rely on the USA. I was using the US's example of military might through technological superiority and highly trained and valuable career soldiers as an example of what Korea should emulate. It has always been true, ever since the Persians fought Greece, that free men from a technologically superior society win wars. For essays on that, read Victor Davis Hanson's book "Carnage and Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise to Western Power."
| Quote: |
| I don't think South Korea is armed with weapons from the 60's except for M16's. Have you seen the modern South Korean tanks? They occasionally show pictures of them in the newspapers. When I was teaching in Korea I would see A-10's flying over every week and I'm pretty sure those were Korean. They have quite a few f-15's and I pretty sure the soldiers are well trained. I am sure they have night vision goggles. Also despite of what happened to the Choenan thier navy ability is pretty good and I don't think North Korea could reach thier ship yards. The Koreans build very good ships, much better than what China puts out. |
Whatever their technological capacity is now, it could be better if what I said was implemented: money from the useless training of millions of young men were funneled into improvements in technology and highly trained military personnel. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006 Location: The Road to Ithaca
|
Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| rollo wrote: |
| Simple they are at war. A peace treaty has never been signed. Why does North Korea draft people? Explain logic of equating national service with slavery. I believe maybe it is just a rumour that there are still hostile actions going on betwen North and South Korea. If the people of South Korea support the draft how can it be slavery? Should there be armies and war. No but then there shouldnt be disease and there should be chocolate fountains and lakes of wine. It is a sad old world. Humanit y is disappointing to paraphrase Mark Twain. |
Thank you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006 Location: The Road to Ithaca
|
Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
Until all the world's people's get on board with the concept of beating swords into plowshares, every country should have mandatory conscription. In fact, such a state of affairs would hasten that blessed day.
How sick I am of these entitled pieces fluff who demand all the benefits and rights of citizenship but who whine and piss and moan about the idea that rights come with responsibilities. Freedom isn't free. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|