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RFK jr. argues 2004 election was stolen
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Odds Bush Actually "Won" 2004 Election - 1 In 450,000

Published on Thursday, June 1, 2006 by Rolling Stone magazine

Was the 2004 Election Stolen?
Republicans prevented more than 350,000 voters in Ohio from casting ballots or having their votes counted -- enough to have put John Kerry in the White House.

by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0601-34.htm
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EFLtrainer wrote:
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
The MYTH of VOTER FRAUD in Ohio
by James Gatz, Mon May 29, 2006 at 06:15:54 PM EST

If you're one of those progressive blog enthusiasts who is confident in their knowledge that George W. Bush STOLE the 2004 election,


Not one point in that pile of crap had anything to do with the evidence presented about voter fraud. Good work, joo. Per usual, you answered evidence with partisan ranting.


the guy was someone who voted for Dean.

Yep you are so left wing you would not fit into the democratic party.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hollywoodaction wrote:
Joo, what that article does not mention is the shredding of Democrat voters's registration forms or the fact that Republicans prevented a non-partisan group from helping unregistered voters to properly fill out the forms needed to get a provisional ballot on election day.




and voter fraud in the state of Wisconsin by the Democratic side.

Also Bush did better in just about every state the second time around .

He won by 3.5 million votes.
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EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
Hollywoodaction wrote:
...Sure, there isn't any evidence that it was a widespread conspiracy, but there is more than enough evidence that some Republicans acted unethically.


Well said.

It is also clear that in most elections, whereever they might occur, some amount of fraud occurs.

Elections, like everything else made by humans, are imperfect and oftentimes problematic things.


Thus, it's all OK.


American, my ass. Oh, wait, you really don't give a damn. My bad, you ARE American.
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EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
EFLtrainer wrote:
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
The MYTH of VOTER FRAUD in Ohio
by James Gatz, Mon May 29, 2006 at 06:15:54 PM EST

If you're one of those progressive blog enthusiasts who is confident in their knowledge that George W. Bush STOLE the 2004 election,


Not one point in that pile of crap had anything to do with the evidence presented about voter fraud. Good work, joo. Per usual, you answered evidence with partisan ranting.


the guy was someone who voted for Dean.

Yep you are so left wing you would not fit into the democratic party.


Riiiiight. That's why I personally oppose abortion, but am pro-choice. You're an idiot. What is the logical connection between who he supported and the logic, or logical fallacies, of his arguments? Rhetorical question.
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EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
Hollywoodaction wrote:
Joo, what that article does not mention is the shredding of Democrat voters's registration forms or the fact that Republicans prevented a non-partisan group from helping unregistered voters to properly fill out the forms needed to get a provisional ballot on election day.




and voter fraud in the state of Wisconsin by the Democratic side.

Also Bush did better in just about every state the second time around .

He won by 3.5 million votes.


Another logical fallacy: idgit, the US system rests with the Electoral College. It matters not a whit what the overall vote is, only what is it in key locations. THAT is why our system has been so easy to manipulate the last two elections. The scumbags running the campaigns only had to figure out which state was THE key state. Why do you think Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004 had so many more election issues than all the other states? See, that's what you call a SALIENT issue.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EFLtrainer wrote:
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
Hollywoodaction wrote:
Joo, what that article does not mention is the shredding of Democrat voters's registration forms or the fact that Republicans prevented a non-partisan group from helping unregistered voters to properly fill out the forms needed to get a provisional ballot on election day.




and voter fraud in the state of Wisconsin by the Democratic side.

Also Bush did better in just about every state the second time around .

He won by 3.5 million votes.


Another logical fallacy: idgit, the US system rests with the Electoral College. It matters not a whit what the overall vote is, only what is it in key locations. THAT is why our system has been so easy to manipulate the last two elections. The scumbags running the campaigns only had to figure out which state was THE key state. Why do you think Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004 had so many more election issues than all the other states? See, that's what you call a SALIENT issue.



But you don't have the evidence that Kerry got or woud have got more votes in Ohio.

The fact is that Bush was doing better nearly everywhere else why would Ohio be different?
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EFLtrainer wrote:
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
EFLtrainer wrote:
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
The MYTH of VOTER FRAUD in Ohio
by James Gatz, Mon May 29, 2006 at 06:15:54 PM EST

If you're one of those progressive blog enthusiasts who is confident in their knowledge that George W. Bush STOLE the 2004 election,


Not one point in that pile of crap had anything to do with the evidence presented about voter fraud. Good work, joo. Per usual, you answered evidence with partisan ranting.


the guy was someone who voted for Dean.

Yep you are so left wing you would not fit into the democratic party.


Riiiiight. That's why I personally oppose abortion, but am pro-choice. You're an idiot. What is the logical connection between who he supported and the logic, or logical fallacies, of his arguments? Rhetorical question.


You said

Quote:
you answered evidence with partisan ranting


When in fact it was written by a progressive who supported Dean.

Yet you seem think he is with the Republicans. KInd of looks like you are to the left of the democratic party
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what's this about then?

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/06/06/con06219.html

This is a fact: On November 2, 2004, in the State of Ohio, 239,127 votes for President of the United States were dumped, rejected, blocked, lost and left to rot uncounted.

And not just anyone's vote. Dive into the electoral dumpster and these "spoiled" votes have a very dark color indeed.

In another life, I taught statistics. And these statistics stank: the raw data tells us that if you are a Black voter, the chance of you losing your vote to technical errors in voting machinery is 900% higher than if you were a white voter.

Any guesses as to whom those African-Americans chose for president on those junked ballots? Check Ohio's racial demographics, do the numbers, and there it is: Kerry won Ohio. And that, too, is a fact. A fact that could not get reported in the USA.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

some waygug-in wrote:
So what's this about then?

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/06/06/con06219.html

This is a fact: On November 2, 2004, in the State of Ohio, 239,127 votes for President of the United States were dumped, rejected, blocked, lost and left to rot uncounted.

And not just anyone's vote. Dive into the electoral dumpster and these "spoiled" votes have a very dark color indeed.

In another life, I taught statistics. And these statistics stank: the raw data tells us that if you are a Black voter, the chance of you losing your vote to technical errors in voting machinery is 900% higher than if you were a white voter.

Any guesses as to whom those African-Americans chose for president on those junked ballots? Check Ohio's racial demographics, do the numbers, and there it is: Kerry won Ohio. And that, too, is a fact. A fact that could not get reported in the USA.



Well it not good that African Americans had a much higher chance of losing their votes. But lets remember than African American are 20% of the US population so lets say that that of the 237,000 spoiled votes , (you are not going to tell me that all of the votes disqualified were legit ) 200,000 were legitimate and of those 1/3 were African Americans and lets say everyone of those votes were for Kerry ( even though Bush got 10% of the African American vote) that would give us about 60-70,000 more votes for Kerry. Bush won by 110,000 votes that would mean that Bush still won by 40,000 votes.

110,000 -70,000 = 40,000
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You obviously didn't click on the link and read more of the article.

That part was only the start..........

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/06/06/con06219.html


But the shoplifting of those votes in Ohio was just the tip of the theft-berg. November 2, 2004 was a national ballot-box bonfire. In total, over three million votes (3,600,380 to be exact) were cast -- marked, punched, pulled -- YET NEVER COUNTED. I'm not talking about the Ukraine or Uganda. I'm talking about the United States of America "with liberty and justice for all."

Well, not "all." The nine-to-one Black-to-White ballot spoilage rate is a national statistic -- not just an Ohio trick. Last year, I flew to New Mexico to investigate the 33,981 cast but not counted ballots of that state in the 2004 race. George Bush "won" New Mexico by 5,988 votes. Or did he? I calculated that, of all the ballots rejected and "spoiled," 89% were cast by voters of color. Who won New Mexico? Kerry won -- or he would have, if they had counted the ballots.

But they didn't count them. And that was deliberate. It's in the plan. It's the program. And the program for 2008 is simple. Two million ballots were cast but not counted in the 2000 race. (Over half, 54%, were cast by African-Americans.) In 2004, the GOP kicked it up to THREE million. Get ready, these guys aim high: "four in '06" and "five in '08" looks to be their game plan.

How will they pile up five million un-voters in 2008? Let's start with the three million "disappeared" of 2004:

Step 1: "Spoiling" ballots -- 1,389,231 of them. In the vote-count game, these are called "undervotes" and "overvotes." You can recognize these lost ballots by their hanging chads, punch cards without punches (an Ohio specialty), paper ballots eaten by scanners, and touch screens that didn't know you touched them.

Step 2: Rejecting "provisional ballots" -- 1,090,729 in this pile. Voters finding themselves at the "wrong" precinct, or wrongly "scrubbed" from voter rolls get these back-of-the-bus ballots first inaugurated in 2002. In '04, provisional ballots were passed out like candy to voters in the poorest precincts. They handed them out -- then threw them away -- one million dumped in all. In Ohio, Republican Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell changed state rules, allowing him to toss out the ballots of legal voters who cast ballots in the wrong precinct although these citizens were told their vote would count after confirming their registration.

Step 3: Not counting absentee ballots -- 526,420 of them. At least, that's what we figure from official stats. But it's anyone's guess how many mailed-in votes were dumped. (However, in one case, in Palm Beach, Florida, Jeb Bush's candidate for Elections Supervisor, Theresa LaPore, counted more absentee votes than absentee ballots mailed in. Not the brightest bulb in the vote-fix biz, that Theresa.)

Step 4: Scrub'm, Purge'm, Block'm. These are the voters who never got to vote at all. This group includes those who found their registrations were never entered on the voter rolls. In Ohio, about one-fourth of those registered by Jesse Jackson's 2004 voter drive, found their registrations delayed beyond the election date or lost.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:55 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

The 2004 election is over,

BUT

Joo/Gopher,

do you want these vagaries to continue to exist in our balloting?

Do you want no paper record and a company that makes political contributions to handle voting?

Isn't that conflict of interest?
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

some waygug-in wrote:
You obviously didn't click on the link and read more of the article.

That part was only the start..........

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/06/06/con06219.html


But the shoplifting of those votes in Ohio was just the tip of the theft-berg. November 2, 2004 was a national ballot-box bonfire. In total, over three million votes (3,600,380 to be exact) were cast -- marked, punched, pulled -- YET NEVER COUNTED. I'm not talking about the Ukraine or Uganda. I'm talking about the United States of America "with liberty and justice for all."

Well, not "all." The nine-to-one Black-to-White ballot spoilage rate is a national statistic -- not just an Ohio trick. Last year, I flew to New Mexico to investigate the 33,981 cast but not counted ballots of that state in the 2004 race. George Bush "won" New Mexico by 5,988 votes. Or did he? I calculated that, of all the ballots rejected and "spoiled," 89% were cast by voters of color. Who won New Mexico? Kerry won -- or he would have, if they had counted the ballots.

But they didn't count them. And that was deliberate. It's in the plan. It's the program. And the program for 2008 is simple. Two million ballots were cast but not counted in the 2000 race. (Over half, 54%, were cast by African-Americans.) In 2004, the GOP kicked it up to THREE million. Get ready, these guys aim high: "four in '06" and "five in '08" looks to be their game plan.

How will they pile up five million un-voters in 2008? Let's start with the three million "disappeared" of 2004:

Step 1: "Spoiling" ballots -- 1,389,231 of them. In the vote-count game, these are called "undervotes" and "overvotes." You can recognize these lost ballots by their hanging chads, punch cards without punches (an Ohio specialty), paper ballots eaten by scanners, and touch screens that didn't know you touched them.

Step 2: Rejecting "provisional ballots" -- 1,090,729 in this pile. Voters finding themselves at the "wrong" precinct, or wrongly "scrubbed" from voter rolls get these back-of-the-bus ballots first inaugurated in 2002. In '04, provisional ballots were passed out like candy to voters in the poorest precincts. They handed them out -- then threw them away -- one million dumped in all. In Ohio, Republican Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell changed state rules, allowing him to toss out the ballots of legal voters who cast ballots in the wrong precinct although these citizens were told their vote would count after confirming their registration.

Step 3: Not counting absentee ballots -- 526,420 of them. At least, that's what we figure from official stats. But it's anyone's guess how many mailed-in votes were dumped. (However, in one case, in Palm Beach, Florida, Jeb Bush's candidate for Elections Supervisor, Theresa LaPore, counted more absentee votes than absentee ballots mailed in. Not the brightest bulb in the vote-fix biz, that Theresa.)

Step 4: Scrub'm, Purge'm, Block'm. These are the voters who never got to vote at all. This group includes those who found their registrations were never entered on the voter rolls. In Ohio, about one-fourth of those registered by Jesse Jackson's 2004 voter drive, found their registrations delayed beyond the election date or lost.



Lets see

Bush 62,040,606 51% 286
Kerry 59,028,109 48% 252


Bush won by more than 3,000,000 votes are you telling me that

A) ALL the spoiled votes were legit?

B) ALL of those 3,600,000 votes would have gone to Kerry?

Besides there was possible fraud in wisconsin on the part of democrats that means that even if Bush had lost Ohio IF he had won Wisconsin he would have won the election.

You made the charges but you also need to answer the questions.


Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:09 am    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

Nowhere Man wrote:
The 2004 election is over,

BUT

Joo/Gopher,

do you want these vagaries to continue to exist in our balloting?

Do you want no paper record and a company that makes political contributions to handle voting?

Isn't that conflict of interest?


I think electronic voting is a good thing. I don't like the fact that more African American that Whites lost there vote.
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/06/06/con06219.html

How many lost their chance to vote by scrubbing, purging and blocking? That's anyone's guess, but one million would not be an unfair estimate -- and that's not included in the 3.6 million tally of ballots uncounted.
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