|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
|
 Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| "always expensive" is relative to what people earn. Expensive to you and I, certainly, but to a chap on 100,000 GBP per year it's peanuts and London has millions of such individuals. |
London does not have 'millions' of people earning 100,000 pounds per year. |
Silly me, I meant USD. I made the same claim earlier in the thread. 80,000 millionaires work in the City of London alone, which is 1 sq mile.
| Quote: |
| Anyway, we were talking about average salaries, and in London, for most Londoners, a night out is a rather large expense, particularly when you add in the cost of getting a taxi (at least 25 pounds). For the average Londoner, London is still a very expensive place, when compared to other European cities. |
We need to know what 'average' in Seoul is like - compare average in London vs average in Seoul - for this to be significant. How many times more expensive are average property prices than average salaries (in London it's about 7 or 8 - dunno about Seoul)? How much are other goods and services compared to average income in both cities? To the average Seouler, how much cheaper, if at all, is a typical night out compared to that in London relative to average income? We need to find these things out.
| indiercj wrote: |
| Is it possible to have a complete meal delivered at your door for under 6000W in London? How about having the entire 100 square meter apartment unit papered anew for 700,000W? I am just curious. |
This enquiry is devoid of any significance. What ever answer one gives, it has to be viewed from the perspective of earnings. Your question implies that 6000w delivery is cheap, but you have an average or above average income I suspect. Your question is no different from a wealthy Londoner saying "does your city have food delivery for 15 pounds? Can a taxi go 2 miles for 10 pounds in your city?" Many Koreans earn a lot below you, so 6000 may seem 30-40% more for them. If I tell you that a can of coke in Ethiopia is 10 cents, you'd think "wow - cheap!", but if I told you per capita GDP in Ethiopia is $180 per year, suddenly it's not so cheap from the perspective of an earner in Ethiopia. Earnings in Seoul are lower than in London, so your "it's only 6000 for meal delivery" is meaningless without context.
Anyway, no idea about the wallpaper, but of course London, a major capital, has meal delivery services and, yes, I suspect one must pay more for delivery than 6,000W (that would very cheap by London standards because people earn more). But again, if it's 4 or 5 times more expensive, this sounds expensive but is insignificant without considering London's average earnings. If for deliveries one must spend twice or thrice as much in London - yet average earnings in London are 4 or 5 times that of Seoul - it is Seoul that is more expensive with respect to meal delivery from the perspective of a Seoul average income-earner. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You have conceded the point.
It's an aceepted fact that Londoners make more than Seoulites, but 3-4 times more? No way.
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| "always expensive" is relative to what people earn. Expensive to you and I, certainly, but to a chap on 100,000 GBP per year it's peanuts and London has millions of such individuals. |
London does not have 'millions' of people earning 100,000 pounds per year. |
Silly me, I meant USD. I made the same claim earlier in the thread. 80,000 millionaires work in the City of London alone, which is 1 sq mile.
| Quote: |
| Anyway, we were talking about average salaries, and in London, for most Londoners, a night out is a rather large expense, particularly when you add in the cost of getting a taxi (at least 25 pounds). For the average Londoner, London is still a very expensive place, when compared to other European cities. |
We need to know what 'average' in Seoul is like - compare average in London vs average in Seoul - for this to be significant. How many times more expensive are average property prices than average salaries (in London it's about 7 or 8 - dunno about Seoul)? How much are other goods and services compared to average income in both cities? To the average Seouler, how much cheaper, if at all, is a typical night out compared to that in London relative to average income? We need to find these things out.
| indiercj wrote: |
| Is it possible to have a complete meal delivered at your door for under 6000W in London? How about having the entire 100 square meter apartment unit papered anew for 700,000W? I am just curious. |
This enquiry is devoid of any significance. What ever answer one gives, it has to be viewed from the perspective of earnings. Your question implies that 6000w delivery is cheap, but you have an average or above average income I suspect. Your question is no different from a wealthy Londoner saying "does your city have food delivery for 15 pounds? Can a taxi go 2 miles for 10 pounds in your city?" Many Koreans earn a lot below you, so 6000 may seem 30-40% more for them. If I tell you that a can of coke in Ethiopia is 10 cents, you'd think "wow - cheap!", but if I told you per capita GDP in Ethiopia is $180 per year, suddenly it's not so cheap from the perspective of an earner in Ethiopia. Earnings in Seoul are lower than in London, so your "it's only 6000 for meal delivery" is meaningless without context.
Anyway, no idea about the wallpaper, but of course London, a major capital, has meal delivery services and, yes, I suspect one must pay more for delivery than 6,000W (that would very cheap by London standards because people earn more). But again, if it's 4 or 5 times more expensive, this sounds expensive but is insignificant without considering London's average earnings. If for deliveries one must spend twice or thrice as much in London - yet average earnings in London are 4 or 5 times that of Seoul - it is Seoul that is more expensive with respect to meal delivery from the perspective of a Seoul average income-earner. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ilsanman wrote: |
| You have conceded the point. |
Conceded what point and why?
| Quote: |
| It's an aceepted fact that Londoners make more than Seoulites, but 3-4 times more? No way. |
Some source other than your say so would be great.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| If for deliveries one must spend twice or thrice as much in London - yet average earnings in London are 4 or 5 times that of Seoul - it is Seoul that is more expensive with respect to meal delivery from the perspective of a Seoul average income-earner. |
So far, nobody has been able to produce any information on average salaries in Seoul, which are likely to be considerably higher than the Korean average. You have already stated that average salaries in London are around the 60,000 dollar mark. Well, if average Korean salaries are around 20,000 dollars, and if we assume that Seoul salaries are at least a bit higher, then clearly people in London do not earn 4 to 5 times more than people in Seoul, although they may well be paying 4 to 5 times more for transport, rent and eating out. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
For just 433 pounds a month (800,000 won) you can rent a lovely.....parking space, in central London!
http://www.foxtons.co.uk/search?order_by=price+desc&price_to=175&location_ids=290&search_form=map&per_page=10&search_type=LL¤t_page=2&submit_type=search
You can also rent a GARAGE, in the lovely West Kensington area for just a snip at 520 pounds per month!!
Renting a one room, or studio flat in London, is likely to cost you well over $2,000, and even then you will probably be living somewhere not particularly nice like Hackney or Walthamstow. For somewhere close to central London, in a nice area, forget about it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So your way of arguing is telling me the onus of proof is on me?
The stats we have seem contrary to what you are stating. About the average income of a British vs Korean person.
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| Ilsanman wrote: |
| You have conceded the point. |
Conceded what point and why?
| Quote: |
| It's an aceepted fact that Londoners make more than Seoulites, but 3-4 times more? No way. |
Some source other than your say so would be great. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ilsanman wrote: |
So your way of arguing is telling me the onus of proof is on me?
The (A) stats we have seem contrary to (B) what you are stating. About the average income of a British vs Korean person. |
See my letters.
(A) What stats? I'm not being funny with you buddy - I'm asking you what stats you are referring to. We don't have many stats - that's the problem.
(B) Show me what it is - with a quote (so we avoid strawmen) - what it is you believe I'm stating.
| Bigverne wrote: |
| So far, nobody has been able to produce any information on average salaries in Seoul, which are likely to be considerably higher than the Korean average |
We need to know precisely how much Seoul differs from the rest of Korea. As I said earlier, Korea's per capita GDP generally is 46% of that in the UK generally. London is considerably wealthier and more expensive than the rest of the country too - so it's crucial if we're to see whether Seoul is an expensive city or not by (a) London standards, which is certainly richer but we don't know how much by, (b) by the standards of Seoul's own average income.
[quote="Bigverne"]
| Quote: |
| You have already stated that average salaries in London are around the 60,000 dollar mark |
No. Recall claims correctly. I said, based on this recent article, that people in the south (which includes London but does not concern it specifically) earn approx $60,000 on average. No idea what the average in London is and we need to find out. No luck so far.
I also said "the average London salary, five years ago (so it's more now), was just under $70,000" (+).
| Bigverne wrote: |
| Well, if average Korean salaries are around 20,000 dollars, and if we assume that Seoul salaries are at least a bit higher, then clearly people in London do not earn 4 to 5 times more than people in Seoul, although they may well be paying 4 to 5 times more for transport, rent and eating out. |
You and Ilsanman are getting the "4 or 5 times" thing from this: "if it's 4 or 5 times more expensive, this sounds expensive but is insignificant without considering London's average earnings. If for deliveries one must spend twice or thrice as much in London - yet average earnings in London are 4 or 5 times that of Seoul - it is Seoul that is more expensive with respect to meal delivery from the perspective of a Seoul average income-earner."
That's speculation to make a point about the pointlessness of saying "X costs this much" in London or Seoul without taking into account, let alone mentioning, the average income in those places. It is not a claim that average income in London is 4/5 times that in Seoul - although for many I suspect that is true, but the average? I doubt it. We don't know, do we?
Central London, terrible traffic, very high incomes.....makes sense.
But again, it's less straightforward than you're implying. The casual reader will conclude "Wow! London is way more expensive than Seoul", but you are simply telling the reader how much stuff costs in London. You need to (a) make a comparison with a similar service in an area like Gangnam or central Seoul and show how those prices compare to local earnings, (b) indicate how much workers earn in this area of London.... otherwise it's not much use.
| Bigverne wrote: |
| You can also rent a GARAGE, in the lovely West Kensington area for just a snip at 520 pounds per month!! |
There are several cheaper ones. The other garages in your link are (pounds) 100, 139, 217 and 347....in or near central London, that doesn't sound out of the ordinary to me (again considering what people in central London earn).
| Bigverne wrote: |
| Renting a one room, or studio flat in London, is likely to cost you well over $2,000, and even then you will probably be living somewhere not particularly nice like Hackney or Walthamstow. For somewhere close to central London, in a nice area, forget about it. |
We know stuff in London costs a lot. We need to know (a) the like in Seoul (and show the relation to local earnings) and (b) the relation of London properties to local earnings. Mind you, I read that average property prices in London are 7 or 8 times average income, so property in London is indeed horribly expensive. It'd be nice to see a comparison with Seoul....how much average property price is vs average earnings. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
indiercj
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| We need to know what 'average' in Seoul is like - compare average in London vs average in Seoul - for this to be significant. How many times more expensive are average property prices than average salaries (in London it's about 7 or 8 - dunno about Seoul)? |
According to the statistics reported by the Seoul Metropolitan Government, as of the second quater this year, the average household income in Seoul is 3,280,000W/month(39,360,000W/year). That is equivalent to 3,577$/month(43,992$/year) or 1,761GBP/month(21,128GBP/year). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| indiercj wrote: |
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| We need to know what 'average' in Seoul is like - compare average in London vs average in Seoul - for this to be significant. How many times more expensive are average property prices than average salaries (in London it's about 7 or 8 - dunno about Seoul)? |
According to the statistics reported by the Seoul Metropolitan Government, as of the second quater this year, the average household income in Seoul is 3,280,000W/month(39,360,000W/year). That is equivalent to 3,577$/month(43,992$/year) or 1,761GBP/month(21,128GBP/year). |
Well, thanks for the information, but that does say per 'household' (not per person).
Got a link, btw? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
indiercj
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| indiercj wrote: |
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| We need to know what 'average' in Seoul is like - compare average in London vs average in Seoul - for this to be significant. How many times more expensive are average property prices than average salaries (in London it's about 7 or 8 - dunno about Seoul)? |
According to the statistics reported by the Seoul Metropolitan Government, as of the second quater this year, the average household income in Seoul is 3,280,000W/month(39,360,000W/year). That is equivalent to 3,577$/month(43,992$/year) or 1,761GBP/month(21,128GBP/year). |
Well, thanks for the information, but that does say per 'household' (not per person).
Got a link, btw? |
Link
The average of family members per household in Seoul is 3.13. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| indiercj wrote: |
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| indiercj wrote: |
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| We need to know what 'average' in Seoul is like - compare average in London vs average in Seoul - for this to be significant. How many times more expensive are average property prices than average salaries (in London it's about 7 or 8 - dunno about Seoul)? |
According to the statistics reported by the Seoul Metropolitan Government, as of the second quater this year, the average household income in Seoul is 3,280,000W/month(39,360,000W/year). That is equivalent to 3,577$/month(43,992$/year) or 1,761GBP/month(21,128GBP/year). |
Well, thanks for the information, but that does say per 'household' (not per person).
Got a link, btw? |
Link
The average family members per household in Seoul is 3.13. |
Very low then. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venus
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Location: Near Seoul
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| For people saying they save alot in korea, i was saving more in england, about $2000 per month and I wouldn't say i had really good job I was only a tempory worker, but i was making $20/hour and $40 over time. For a perminant job I wouldn't accept anything less than $50,000 per year n I don't really have any experience I finished my degree a year ago. But when I go back I will goto to the bournemouth its much nicer than london and I can live comfortably off $350/week |
You can live on 175 pounds a week..? So, that's 700 pounds a month
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
You wont even get housing for less than around 250 - 300 pounds a week in the north, let alone in Bournmouth...! that'll leave you around 400 pounds a month to live off then. Minus at least 100 of that for eating. Leaves 300. A couple of nights out and an item of clothes and you're broke.
You could just scrape by, but wouldn't save a penny and wouldn't be able to do much...! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venus
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Location: Near Seoul
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| Ilsanman wrote: |
| South Korea had a GNP of $18,000 only 3 or so years ago. I fail to see how it went up so quickly. Are they comparing it to the falling American dollar? If so, then it has only really gone up so much due to the falling US dollar. |
If Korea had a GNP of $18,000 it would be a very, very, exceptionally poor country. Here's what GNP means mate.
| Quote: |
| Myself and others make more than the average Korean. Even people who work for 2.2 a month do. According to most, it's still quite easy to save a million a month, some save much more. As long as that's true, prices aren't bad. Just avoid imports if you care for your pocketbook. |
Saving 1 million per month to anyone who isn't teetotal and not sick of downmarket Korean food after their first month or doesn't do privates requires some frugality in my opinion.
| Quote: |
| Moscow was considered #1 for foreigners b/c they specially price western comforts and special apartments at super inflated prices for foreigners. I remember reading that article. Some person said it costs $4000 a month for a luxury apartment. I doubt citizens of Russia even earn $4000 a month. The study is biased. |
Moscow is a very wealthy and expensive city. No surprise at all that it features with London and Seoul in the 'most expensive' charts. |
To bolded part.
No way. I drink a lot, eat out a lot (Korean and Western) go out socially a lot and take taxis few times a month and save 1 mill a month piece of
p!ss.
Salary is 2.3. Clear around 2.1
Save 1.2 usually.
Leaves around 230,000 a week for spending. 15,000 a day in week and leaves 150,000 for weekend.
It's SO easy to save 1 mill a month here! Even on 2 mil. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Thunndarr
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| venus wrote: |
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| Ilsanman wrote: |
| South Korea had a GNP of $18,000 only 3 or so years ago. I fail to see how it went up so quickly. Are they comparing it to the falling American dollar? If so, then it has only really gone up so much due to the falling US dollar. |
If Korea had a GNP of $18,000 it would be a very, very, exceptionally poor country. Here's what GNP means mate.
| Quote: |
| Myself and others make more than the average Korean. Even people who work for 2.2 a month do. According to most, it's still quite easy to save a million a month, some save much more. As long as that's true, prices aren't bad. Just avoid imports if you care for your pocketbook. |
Saving 1 million per month to anyone who isn't teetotal and not sick of downmarket Korean food after their first month or doesn't do privates requires some frugality in my opinion.
| Quote: |
| Moscow was considered #1 for foreigners b/c they specially price western comforts and special apartments at super inflated prices for foreigners. I remember reading that article. Some person said it costs $4000 a month for a luxury apartment. I doubt citizens of Russia even earn $4000 a month. The study is biased. |
Moscow is a very wealthy and expensive city. No surprise at all that it features with London and Seoul in the 'most expensive' charts. |
To bolded part.
No way. I drink a lot, eat out a lot (Korean and Western) go out socially a lot and take taxis few times a month and save 1 mill a month piece of
p!ss.
Salary is 2.3. Clear around 2.1
Save 1.2 usually.
Leaves around 230,000 a week for spending. 15,000 a day in week and leaves 150,000 for weekend.
It's SO easy to save 1 mill a month here! Even on 2 mil. |
You didn't mention your monthly bills which will eat into your daily allowance quite a bit. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Maybe you're right, Venus. Don't get me wrong - I've saved a crapload of money in Seoul and looking at it that way (200k per week to save 1m per month) I suppose I agree with you. We're paid quite well. Taking into consideration the rent, our salaries (2m+ x 13 including severance and say 500,000pm rent) are w33m per year (excluding OT and illegal income and flights) which isn't far behind what a Seoul family of 3.13 are pulling in. Unlike us, their 3.2m per month is behind spent on 3 heads per household.
Returning to that......
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| indiercj wrote: |
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| indiercj wrote: |
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| We need to know what 'average' in Seoul is like - compare average in London vs average in Seoul - for this to be significant. How many times more expensive are average property prices than average salaries (in London it's about 7 or 8 - dunno about Seoul)? |
According to the statistics reported by the Seoul Metropolitan Government, as of the second quater this year, the average household income in Seoul is 3,280,000W/month(39,360,000W/year). That is equivalent to 3,577$/month(43,992$/year) or 1,761GBP/month(21,128GBP/year). |
Well, thanks for the information, but that does say per 'household' (not per person).
Got a link, btw? |
Link
The average family members per household in Seoul is 3.13. |
Very low then. |
That family of 3.13 (two parents and 1.3 kids - amongst the lowest birth rates in the world) are living on pretty much what I'm on. Korea has a lot of housewives so that household income is quite possibly one male salary. Seoul, to them, whose grocery shopping is being spent on 2 to 3 people, will seem a very expensive city in my opinion. This is what people mean when they say Seoul is expensive. From our perspective, it's all rather affordable, as would London be if you were taking home almost what an average household of 3.13 was. From the perspective of an average Seoul household, it's pretty expensive. Koreans are getting ripped-off in the supermarkets, big willy style.
And why are birth rates worryingly low? Because of expense, I assume. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
