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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| treat muslims and muslim nations with the respect that they deserve, stop the ongoing policy of divide, destabilize and conquer that we've been using against them for decades. |
Please expand on this divide and conquer policy? Other parts of the world have gotten over the legacy of colonialism and have thrived. The Islamic world has failed, miserably, and they have only to look in the mirror to find who is to blame for that. Although, it's much easier to blame whitey for your own shortcomings. |
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dbee
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:54 am Post subject: |
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As usual in the Arab world, everyone knew what was happening and no one said a thing. The British and American pilots flying the pointless southern "no-fly" zone �� allegedly to protect Iraq's minorities �� could clearly see the receding waters of the Marsh. The Arab regimes remained silent. Neither Mubarak nor Arafat nor Assad nor Fahd uttered the mildest word of criticism, any more than they did when the Kurds were gassed.
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... it was only sixty years ago that millions of jews, gypsies, homosexuals, pacifists and russians were sent to the gas chambers in the heart of the european continent.
Everybody knew what was happening but no-one was prepared to challenge hitler or save large numbers of refugees from their fate by accepting them as refugees.
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Really lets see the US defended MUSLIM Kurds from Saddam and defended KOSOVO from Slobidan.
The US has given 2 B a year to Egypt. The US has had good relations with Indonesia and Pakistan , those are second and third and fourth biggest muslim nations.
by the way in Indonesia the US supported the muslims against the communists.
The US also saved muslims in Kuwait.
The US has good relations w/ India where there are more muslims than anywhere else.
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... these are all isolated cases that are not indicative of a trend. Just cause someone spends mon and tue handing out bread to the poor, doesn't mean they can spend the rest of the week strong-arming citizens and still remain a friend of the community. If that was the case then the mafia would be role-models.
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Please expand on this divide and conquer policy?
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... there's an interesting article on the subject here, which could explain better than I could I'm sure.
http://counterpunch.org/hallinan07142004.html
just to take a few points though...
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Sir Ronald Storrs, the first Governor of Jerusalem, certainly had no illusions about what a "Jewish homeland" in Palestine meant for the British Empire: "It will form for England," he said, "a little loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism."
Ireland was where the English invented the tactic of divide and conquer, and where the devastating effectiveness of using foreign settlers to drive a wedge between the colonial rulers and the colonized made it a template for worldwide imperial rule.
The Protestant privileges were a constant sore point with the native Irish; although in fact, most Protestants were little better off than their Catholic neighbors. Rents were uniformly onerous, regardless of religion.
Indeed, there were numerous cases where Protestants and Catholics united to protest exorbitant rents, but in virtually every case, the authorities successfully used religion and privilege to split such alliances. The Orange Order, the organization most responsible for sectarian politics in the North today, was originally formed in 1795 to break a Catholic-Protestant rent strike.
Divide and conquer was 19th and early 20th century colonialism's single most successful tactic of domination. It was also a disaster, one which still echoes in civil wars and regional tensions across the globe. This latter lesson does not appear to be one the Israelis have paid much attention to. As a system of rule, division and privilege may work in the short run, but over time it engenders nothing but hatred. These polices, according to Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon, foment "terror," adding, "In tactical decisions, we are operating contrary to our strategic interests."
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
Really lets see the US defended MUSLIM Kurds from Saddam and defended KOSOVO from Slobidan.
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Clinton aided muslim terrorists against traditional allies, the Serbians. they should have learned from them instead.
Serbia fought islamic terrorism for 500 years: they were invaded by the Islamic Ottoman empire in 1389, began to regain power throughout the 19th century, and by 1878 they'd regained their independence.
Kosovo has always been a region of Serbia. It has never been part of Albania. The Serbs have been living in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija since the 6th century. That territory is of exceptional importance for the Serbian history and for the cultural-civilizational identity of Serbia. Many Serbian cultural monuments are situated in Kosovo and Metohija (200 medieval churches, many now burned to the ground by Muslims).
Albanian muslim settlers (descended from the Islamic invasion of the 13th c) declared juhad, a holocaust of non-muslims against the Serbian govt in 1999 to make kosovo an independent muslim state/ addition to "greater albania". Milosevic ordered Serbian army to deport Muslims back to Albania.The USA and UN then helped the muslims in a massive genocide of Serbians- former allies who had so loyally fought against hitler, for example.
The west has been so busy scoring own goals, they have been asking for the terrorism to come to their doorsteps. And now it has- and still they try to placate and pander to it. In deep denial. Perhaps now, with all western countries hosting significantly large muslim communities, they have no choice any longer.
The invasion of Iraq is not the cause of Islamic terorism. it stretches unabated back for centuries.. and is directly ordered, and fostered by the teachings of the Koran. |
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dbee
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:00 am Post subject: |
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Milosevic ordered Serbian army to deport Muslims back to Albania.
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... quite unfortunte then that many of these deportees ended up in large containers at the bottom of lakes, or buried in forests just outside of large military bases. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| dbee wrote: |
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Milosevic ordered Serbian army to deport Muslims back to Albania.
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... quite unfortunte then that many of these deportees ended up in large containers at the bottom of lakes, or buried in forests just outside of large military bases. |
You ignore the centuries of aggression against serbians by Muslims. You also ignore the fact that after the UN handed Kosovo to muslims, they ethnically cleansed the entire area of not only ethnic serbs but also of Romany gypsies and all non muslims, creating an unprecedented refugee problem in the region.
muslims were originally allowed to settle in kosovo under the rule of Tito. they were given sanctuary and allowed all religious freedoms, as refugees. After multiplying rapidly they sparked a war, and have now gotten away with partitioning a formerly christian country, and robbed serbia of a province- with the full backing of the west.
Your words dbee- "divide, destabilize and conquer" perfectly describes the seemingly unstoppable march of Islam.
The same pattern is, and will be repeated over and over until Islam has entirely carved up the globe.
Last edited by rapier on Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| it stretches unabated back for centuries.. and is directly ordered, and fostered by the teachings of the Koran. |
And until people understand this fact, we haven't a hope in hell of defeating Islamic terrorism. |
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dbee
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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The same pattern is, and will be repeated over and over until Islam has entirely carved up the globe.
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... only fifty years ago the west was experiencing the exact same problem. We had a race of people that were committing terrorist acts against the established order. They were murdering civilians and committing acts of terror, and what's more, they were citing their religious texts as justification of their acts.
Only they weren't muslim, they were jews. The 'stern gang' et al. were roundly castigated in the international media as vicious thugs and terrorists. Later on we decided that actually the jews were our friends, and so we granted them their wishes (at the expense of other peoples). The problem was then solved (or so we thought).
hinduism has to be one of the world's most benign religions. Here you have an ancient teaching which isn't proselytised (preached), has no priests or hierarchical structure, it has no holy texts, it has over 3000 gods one of which is a benevolent half-man, half-elephant which flies around on a magical bull. Yet India (mostly hindu) is the home to some of the worlds worst religious conflicts, which often take the form of armed gangs roaming cities and towns, strangling and beating to death whoever happens to be from the 'enemy' religion at the time (sometimes muslims, sometimes sikhs etc...)
before hitler came to power in germany, clashes between his extremist SA and the opposite extremist communists were a regular occurance. The members of these organisations were thugs, murders and criminals, who just happened to have a 'respectable' cause to fight for at the time.
So why then, when hitler came to power, did he immediately imprison or murder only the dissidents, intellectuals and pacifists that stood against him?
What did he do with the murdering communists that had committed such violent acts against his own hired thugs and murderers (among others). Hitler knew something which it would benefit the rest of us to learn. He knew that the extremist/violent communist and the extremist/violent fascist have much more in common with each other, than either of them have in common with the moderates of their own party. They think alike, see the world in the same manner, they'll both respond in the same manner to circumstances. Instead of murdering them or imprisoning them, hitler inducted these men into his own SA and SS.
In the same way extremists of all brand are a problem of moderates everywhere, whether they be muslim moderates, christian moderates etc... . By declaring that all muslims are evil, you are playing into the hands of the people who want to see war and confrontation. Don't draw the line between muslim/jew/christian/hindu, you draw the line between people who want to live in peace and see their children live in a world free from strife and war, and other people who'd prefer to do away with the system as we know it, and to start all over again. |
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waggo
Joined: 18 May 2003
Location: pusan baby!
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="dbee"]
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| In the same way extremists of all brand are a problem of moderates everywhere, whether they be muslim moderates, christian moderates etc... . By declaring that all muslims are evil, you are playing into the hands of the people who want to see war and confrontation. Don't draw the line between muslim/jew/christian/hindu, you draw the line between people who want to live in peace and see their children live in a world free from strife and war, and other people who'd prefer to do away with the system as we know it, and to start all over again. |
Very very wise words.....now go and tell the muslims that. |
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dbee
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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Very very wise words.....now go and tell the muslims that
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... I think if you really do look for yourself, and ignore the propaganda being fed to you by the military/industrial complex of the day (who stands to gain enormously by spreading half-truths and hatred), then you'll see that the overwhelming majority of muslims feel the same we do.
if you live in small town america and you'd like to participate fully in the 'war on terror', stop giving sideways glances at 'strange' dark-looking folk and telling everyone who'll listen how 'worthless' muslims and muslim civilisation is.
Instead go to your local mosque and talk to the preacher, bring him into your community center and ask him if he'll speak to your community about the beautiful traditions and beliefs of the muslim religion. Make sure to tell your kids about a man from the middle east who grew knowledge and truth from a desert land of murderers and thieves (and who prayed to the same god that we do).
If you can bring the moderates together, then the extremists will dissolve. The extremists can't survive without the support of the moderates. They'll either blend back into moderate society (if they fought because of their conscience), or alternatively they'll take to killing and robbing, and end up in prison with the other criminals.
If you can't do that, then dig in for a long and fruitless war. Because everything we throw at the muslims will come back to hit us in the face, either through terrorism or by our own leaders abusing the 'special powers' that we give them - to railroad us out of the basic freedoms which our forefathers have fought so hard to gain. And don't forget, theres someone, somewhere gaining an awful lot of power and money from seeing this cycle of hatred and violence continue  |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| dbee wrote: |
| ask him if he'll speak to your community about the beautiful traditions and beliefs of the muslim religion. |
like what? |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| dbee wrote: |
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Having sex with 8 year old girls, raping captured slave girls, wiping out enemies ruthlessly. No, I am not impressed in the slightest.
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... again, look to your own backyard before you start pointing the finger at other people. The following is a decree made by Moses on how to deal with prisoners during his war with the miridians.
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Numbers 31:15-18
kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the little girls among the women, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves
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... moses is the main prophet of Judaism, I think it's fair to say that if someone was to come onto this forum and start slagging off the jews like some people have been slagging off the muslims, they'd be called a nazi, anti-semite among other things
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Here's another translation (NIV) which doesn't have the same pedophilic connotations. Please note that they are fighting the "Midianites" not "Miridians." Doing battle against imaginary geographical lines would be a bit futile. 
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Numbers 31:15-18
15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
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This case is an exception, since they were in the habit of sparing the women, as you can see from the context of the passage.
By the way, neither Moses nor Joseph were prophets in the strictest sense. They are patriarchs, and they heard from God, but they don't normally fall under the category of "prophet". |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| only fifty years ago the west was experiencing the exact same problem. We had a race of people that were committing terrorist acts against the established order |
It wasn't 'the exact same problem' at all. It was a localised problem, with Jewish terrorists attacking largely British interests in Israel. It was not the full scale Jihad against Western countries that we are seeing now.
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| Instead go to your local mosque and talk to the preacher, bring him into your community center and ask him if he'll speak to your community about the beautiful traditions and beliefs of the muslim religion. |
Would these beautiful traditions include stonings, executing people for apostasy and Jihad against infidels? Beautiful traditions indeed! Also, be sure to ask him about his views on Shariah Law and whether muslims who convert to other religions or 'blaspheme' should be punished. Then wait for some skillful evasion. What does he think about suicide bombings on women and children in pizza parlours? Does he agree with the sentiments of the 'moderate and well respected' scholar, Yusuf Qaradawi, that all Jews are fair game, including women and children? Wait for more excuses and a list of muslim grievances. Does he also agree with Yusuf Qaradawi that homosexuals should be stoned to death?
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| Make sure to tell your kids about a man from the middle east who grew knowledge and truth from a desert land of murderers and thieves (and who prayed to the same god that we do). |
I will tell my kids about a man from the middle east, who through his own cunning, leadership, and sheer will, built himself an empire in the middle east, through conquest, pillage and rape. To do this, he made himself a 'prophet' to give himself a veneer of legitimacy. His great 'legacy' can still be seen in the violence and oppression that blights the Islamic world.
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| The extremists can't survive without the support of the moderates. |
Now, you're making sense. Time to root out the so-called 'moderates' who are so often apologists for extremist Islam. |
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dbee
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:11 am Post subject: |
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It was not the full scale Jihad against Western countries that we are seeing now
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... I really doubt that this is a full scale jihad ... I mean how many attacks have there actually been ? over how many years ? Islam has not declared war on the west, and to insinuate that it has is misleading.
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Also, be sure to ask him about his views on Shariah Law and whether muslims who convert to other religions or 'blaspheme' should be punished
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... no religion is too keen on losing members and most of them would punish wrong-doers given the chance. Rome has a decree that it's a 'sin' to bring up children of mixed marriages in the non-catholic religion, homosexuality is also banned.
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Does he agree with the sentiments of the 'moderate and well respected' scholar, Yusuf Qaradawi, that all Jews are fair game, including women and children?
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... what ??? you mean some random muslim guy said it's ok to bomb women and children ... alright then, that's changed my mind about everything ... quick, you grab the gasoline and I'll get the hangin rope. 
Seriously though, we all judge other groups of people by their worst members. The English are hooligans, the Irish are drunks, the Americans are loud and stupid etc...
... 'respected' by who exactly ?
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through conquest, pillage and rape.
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... I think we've been over this before
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Time to root out the so-called 'moderates' who are so often apologists for extremist Islam.
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... you've got a touch of the extremist in you yourself there bigverne. If you are going to examine history, you have to do it dispassionately. Try to see things from both sides of view.
Afterall what good are our enlightened views, freedom of speech and general wonderfulness if our solution to every problem involves high level bombings, hit teams and 'rooting out the moderates' ? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| I really doubt that this is a full scale jihad |
Not yet perhaps, but it may well be the beginning.
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| I mean how many attacks have there actually been ? |
9-11, Bali, Turkey, Beslan, Madrid, London, Delhi, Israel, the Phillipines to mention but a few places where Islamic violence has occured.
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| Islam has not declared war on the west |
Well, an abstract series of ideas can't do anything. However, a number of Islamic groups, with the backing of state and non-state actors in the Islamic world, and with significant support in the muslim world have.
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| Rome has a decree that it's a 'sin' to bring up children of mixed marriages in the non-catholic religion, homosexuality is also banned. |
And in how many catholic are such sins punishable in the courts? That's right, none. Have you recently heard of any movements in catholic countries to make such 'sins' punishable? No, cos there aren't any. In most muslim countries, homosexuality is a crime (sometimes punishable by death), and likewise apostasy. Your comparison is a joke, and shows how far you will go to excuse the excesses of Islam.
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| you mean some random muslim guy said it's ok to bomb women and children |
Yusuf Qaradawi is not some 'random bloke', but a highly respected scholar in the Islamic world. The 'moderate' Muslim Council of Britain used such words to desribe him. Most muslims have heard of him, and he is widely regarded in the Islamic world. His views are far from unusual.
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| Afterall what good are our enlightened views, freedom of speech and general wonderfulness if our solution to every problem involves high level bombings, hit teams and 'rooting out the moderates' ? |
Actually, my solution involves ending muslim immigration and the appeasement of muslims in the West, rooting out muslim apologists (who often cloak themselves in 'moderate' clothes), and establishing energy independence from the Middle East. However, if muslim countries continue to support terrorist organisations then military action cannot be ruled out. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:41 am Post subject: |
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[quote="dbee"]
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| ... I really doubt that this is a full scale jihad ... I mean how many attacks have there actually been ? over how many years ? |
NEW YORK - As speakers at the GOP convention trumpet Bush administration successes in the war on terrorism, an NBC News analysis of Islamic terrorism since Sept. 11, 2001, shows that attacks are on the rise worldwide — dramatically.
Of the roughly 2,929 terrorism-related deaths around the world since the attacks on New York and Washington, the NBC News analysis shows 58 percent of them — 1,709 — have occurred this year.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5889435/
High profile attacks since 9/11:
SEP 11 2001: 2,986 people killed as hijacked planes are flown into New York's Twin Towers and the US Pentagon, and in a fourth hijacked airliner.
DEC 23 2001: Shoe bomber Richard Reid foiled trying to blow up flight from Paris to Miami.
MAR 17 2002: Five people killed when terrorists hurled grenades into a church in Pakistan.
APR 11 2002: Twenty one people, including 18 German tourists, killed when an ancient synagogue was bombed in Tunis.
OCT 6 2002: French oil tanker, the Limburg, attacked by a suicide speed boat off the coast of Yemen. One crew member died.
OCT 12 2002: A bomb in a Bali nightclub killed 202 people, mostly Australians.
NOV 28 2002: Sixteen dead, including three bombers, at the Israeli Paradise Hotel in Mombassa, Kenya. Two missiles missed an Israeli plane carrying 200 people.
MAY 12 2003: Suicide bombers hit three compounds for foreign workers in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. The 34 dead included nine attackers.
MAY 16 2003: Fourteen suicide bombers attacked four targets in the Moroccan capital Casablanca. Forty one people were killed.
AUG 5 2003: Twelve killed by car bomb outside Marriott Hotel in Indonesian capital Jakarta.
NOV 8 2003: Housing complex in Riyadh attacked by suicide car bomb. Seventeen dead, 100 hurt.
NOV 15 2003: Two synagogues in Istanbul attacked, killing 23 and wounding at least 300.
NOV 20 2003: Attacks on British Consulate and HSBC bank in Istanbul killed 27 and injured more than 450. Among the dead was Consul-General Roger Scott.
MAR 11 2004: In Madrid, TEN bombs remotely detonated on four trains in the rush hour killed 191 commuters and wounded 2,000.
MAY 29 2004: Gunmen stormed residential buildings for foreign workers in Khobar, Saudi Arabia. Twenty two workers killed.
JUN 6 2004: Gunmen attacked a BBC crew in Suweidi, Saudi Arabia. Irish cameraman Simon Cumber was killed and BBC correspondent Frank Gardener injured.
JUN 18 2004: American engineer Paul Johnson executed by his kidnappers in Riyadh.
OCT 7 2004: At least 40 people killed when three suicide bombings hit resorts on Egypt's Red Sea coast. At the Taba Hilton, a huge car bomb killed at least 30 people.
DEC 6 2004: Five staff and four gunmen killed in a raid on US consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
Some memorable Attacks before 9/11:
November 1979 -- American Embassy Takeover Tehran
April 1983 - American Embassy Beirut Bombing - 63 dead
October 1982 - Marine Barracks Bombing Beirut - 241 dead
December 1983 - US Embassy in Kuwait truck bombing
September 1984 - US Embassy Beirut - truck bombing
April 1985 - Madrid restaurant frequented by US troops - bombed
August 1985 -US Air Force Base Rhein-Main,truck bomb 22 dead
October 1985 - Achille Lauro cruise ship hijacked - 1 dead
April 1986 - TWA # 840 bombed - 4 dead
December 1988 - Pan Am #103 - blown apart - 259 dead
-remember Lockerbie.
FEB 26 1993: Six people killed by a 500kg bomb beneath the World Trade Center in New York.
DEC 11 1994: Explosion on a Philippine Airlines jet bound for Tokyo killed one and injured ten.
JUN 25 1996: Nineteen US servicemen killed in Dharan, Saudi Arabia, when their housing complex was blown up by a suicide bomber.
AUG 7 1998: American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania attacked in suicide truck bombings. Around 230 people died.
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| Islam has not declared war on the west, and to insinuate that it has is misleading |
On the contrary, Islam is linked from the beginning with the practice of divinely sanctioned warfare and lethal injunctions against apostates and unbelievers. Islam experienced no period of wandering and exclusion; from its inception, Islam formed a unitary state bent on military conquest.
The Prophet died a successful military leader who created a single Islamic polity that expanded - through warfare - all over the known world. The caliphate combined the double logic of a religious community and an imperial state.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/27/opinion/edpabst.php |
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