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waggo
Joined: 18 May 2003
Location: pusan baby!
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 Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:29 am Post subject: |
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"Maybe whites blame race for the crime six times as often as blacks? Anyway, I was trying to be generic about crime at this point. I don't think the raw figures can take us very far. "
That is the most ridiculous thing Ive read on this horrible thread. |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| waggo wrote: |
"Maybe whites blame race for the crime six times as often as blacks? Anyway, I was trying to be generic about crime at this point. I don't think the raw figures can take us very far. "
That is the most ridiculous thing Ive read on this horrible thread. |
Sorry - next time I'm using deliberate overstatement in order to highlight a problem with the opposing case, I'll add a note to help you understand. Or maybe one of these ->  . Will that help? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Why, exactly is it absurd? You don't have any evidence against it. |
And you don't have any evidence for it, so let's stick to the facts shall we? In fact, going on experience white people are far less likely to blame racism than minorities, which means the figures could be even more skewed. Minorities are responsible for racist incidents at over 6 times the rates for whites, and no amount of idle conjecture on your part can explain that fact away.
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| You yourself are claiming further down that when black people are attacked by whites it's automatically racism. |
No, I stated that when blacks are attacked by whites, it is automatically assumed, by the police and the media, that it is racist. When the situation is reversed, this is not the case.
Your link only shows the situation in Scotland. It does not compare crime rates in poor white areas with crime rates in poor black areas and does not support your statement that crime in poor white areas is higher than in black areas.
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| Is it racism that makes you fear the place, or media stereotyping perhaps? |
I know several people who lived there, who had been mugged and attacked and they hated the place. Let's not even talk about Willesden.
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| What I'm getting from this is that you're scared of poor black people. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. |
No, I'd just rather avoid certain areas in London because they are havens for crime. Invariably, they are black.
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| the fact remains that there is proof that ethnic minorities receive worse service from public and private sector bodies for reasons that cannot be justified. |
The problem with institutional racism is that it rests on the assumption that if certain institutions do not 'represent' the ethnic mix, they are, therefore 'institutionally racist'. This means that an institution could be deemed 'institutionally racist' because a lot of networking, and hence promotion possibilities occur in venues where alcohol is served. Therefore, this may negatively impact on muslims, and hence the institution is racist. Obviously, this is nonsense.
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| Maybe your search results would be better if you searched for his actual name - "Christopher Yates" |
Sorry, I forgot his name. You get 2 results for Christopher Yates and 52 for Anthony Walker. Why are you so desperate to use any means to explain this disparity?
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| The list of most wanted you yourself posted, with three of the men on there wanted in connection with the murder of PC Sharon Beshenivsky, shows just how "under the carpet" such incidents are being brushed. |
As I have already explained, murders of police officers are always news, and that issue has little to do with media coverage of racist crimes, as that was not a race attack. Perhaps though you would care to explain why 10 out of 12 on the most wanted list for murder are from ethnic minorities, and out of those, half are foreigners not born in the UK. The result of a lax immigration policy which has allowed thousands of criminals into the country?
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| You haven't demonstrated it at all - otherwise, explain why the people named above got less coverage than Christopher Yates. That white victim, although getting less coverage than one ethnic minority victim, got substantially more coverage than several others. The case proves nothing. |
Again, Mr Yates gets 2 stories on the BBC, Anthony Walker gets 52. Moreover, both killings and trials happened at around the same time, so why did one get more media coverage? Moreover, how could he get 'substantially' more coverage than the cases you mentioned, since there are only 2 stories relating to his murder. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:43 am Post subject: |
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Far-Right Leader: Riots Only the Start
Nov 09 2:08 PM US/Eastern
By JOHN LEICESTER
Associated Press Writer
PARIS
French far-right leader Jean-Marie Le Pen claimed Wednesday his National Front party has been "submerged" with prospective members and supportive e-mail since rioting erupted in heavily immigrant communities near Paris.
In an interview with The Associated Press, Le Pen described the recent violence as "just the start" of conflicts caused by "massive immigration from countries of the Third World that is threatening not just France but the whole continent."
Le Pen said people with immigrant backgrounds who commit crimes should be stripped of their French nationality and sent "back to their country of origin."
Reminded that the vast majority of youths taking part in the arson and rioting are French, born in France to immigrant parents, he said: "What does that mean? Are they French because they have a French identity card?"
French nationality should be given only to those who ask for it and "who are worthy of it," he said. "Those who got nationality automatically, who don't consider themselves French and who even say publicly that they consider France their enemy should not be treated as French."
Le Pen said he is convinced that what he described as a surge in support for his "zero immigration" platform would translate into votes at the ballot box for his National Front party.
French voters "are saying to themselves 'Le Pen was right. We were told that Le Pen is an extremist because he said that immigration problems would lead to disorder. The facts have shown that he was right,'" he said.
"We are receiving thousands of new members, tens of thousands of e- mails. All of our offices are submerged, we don't know how to respond because we don't have the staff to reply to the wave of people who, 95 percent of them, salute and approve our positions," he added.
Le Pen gave no specifics on the number of new members, but the party's top official for new memberships said the figure was closer to 1,000 and that they were requests to join.
Le Pen stunned many in France and shocked Europe by making it through to the second round of the last presidential elections in 2002. But he was soundly defeated in a runoff against President Jacques Chirac.
Le Pen said he is "more than ever" determined to run again in 2007.
"If there were presidential elections now, my chances would be increased tenfold," he said.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/09/D8DP4IE02.html |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| And you don't have any evidence for it, so let's stick to the facts shall we? In fact, going on experience white people are far less likely to blame racism than minorities, which means the figures could be even more skewed. |
I love it - telling me to stick to evidence and then going off with your own speculation!
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| Minorities are responsible for racist incidents at over 6 times the rates for whites, and no amount of idle conjecture on your part can explain that fact away. |
The facts are that the BCS found that twice as many whites as ethnic minorities claimed to have been victims of racially motivated crime, and that whites outnumber ethnic minorities 9:1 in the UK. Anything else - even your statement above - is going beyond the facts. We're dealing with what people will admit to and what people perceive.
I'll say it again - I don't believe the raw figures take us very far.
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| You yourself are claiming further down that when black people are attacked by whites it's automatically racism. |
No, I stated that when blacks are attacked by whites, it is automatically assumed, by the police and the media, that it is racist. When the situation is reversed, this is not the case. |
Go back to the IRR page and read how many cases are specifically noted by the police as not being racially motivated. Your claim is provably false.
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| Your link only shows the situation in Scotland. It does not compare crime rates in poor white areas with crime rates in poor black areas and does not support your statement that crime in poor white areas is higher than in black areas. |
My claim, albeit badly worded, was that crime in poor white areas was higher than in rich white areas - if you remember back, I was drawing a link between crime rates and inequality / poverty.
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| I know several people who lived there, who had been mugged and attacked and they hated the place. Let's not even talk about Willesden. |
I've only been to Willesden twice - it seemed unremarkable. I lived fifteen minutes walk to Peckham for two years - I sometimes walked to Queens Rd station rather than New Cross, and used to cycle through it a lot - and don't remember ever feeling threatened (other than by those damn bendy buses).
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| No, I'd just rather avoid certain areas in London because they are havens for crime. Invariably, they are black. |
But there are no havens of crime you'd avoid, populated by white people?
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| The problem with institutional racism is that it rests on the assumption that if certain institutions do not 'represent' the ethnic mix, they are, therefore 'institutionally racist'. |
It goes much, much deeper than that. It is seen - falsely in my view - that evening up the racial mix will make an institution less racist, but the acid test of institutional racism is how the institution treats the people that come into contact with it.
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| This means that an institution could be deemed 'institutionally racist' because a lot of networking, and hence promotion possibilities occur in venues where alcohol is served. Therefore, this may negatively impact on muslims, and hence the institution is racist. Obviously, this is nonsense. |
As a manager, I'd dispute that it's nonsense - although it's slightly more subtle than that. Holding a meeting somewhere alcohol is served (e.g. a hotel conference room) is a little different to only ever discussing promotions down the pub with the lads after work.
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| Sorry, I forgot his name. You get 2 results for Christopher Yates and 52 for Anthony Walker. Why are you so desperate to use any means to explain this disparity? |
I'm not. I'm trying to explain that there were more than two murders in the past few years, and that picking these two examples seemingly at random and then comparing them like it's proof of something is just ridiculous.
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| Perhaps though you would care to explain why 10 out of 12 on the most wanted list for murder are from ethnic minorities, and out of those, half are foreigners not born in the UK. The result of a lax immigration policy which has allowed thousands of criminals into the country? |
From five to thousands? Nice. Care to explain the mathematics behind that extrapolation?
As for the Most Wanted page itself, have you perhaps considered that it is likely to feature the people the police find it hardest to catch - those without established roots in this country, without family to watch and friends to interview?
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| Again, Mr Yates gets 2 stories on the BBC, Anthony Walker gets 52. Moreover, both killings and trials happened at around the same time, so why did one get more media coverage? Moreover, how could he get 'substantially' more coverage than the cases you mentioned, since there are only 2 stories relating to his murder. |
You're talking bobbins. They didn't happen at the same time at all, and the circumstances and development of the police cases took very different routes.
Anthony Walker was but a kid. He was killed with an axe in his head - hardly a usual method of killing - in August 2005, in a clearly racially motivated attack. There were clear similarities to Stephen Lawrence's murder. Suspects were arrested quickly and tried quickly, keeping the case in the news until today.
Christopher Yates was an adult. He was killed in November 2004 in a vicious attack by a gang who racially abused him. The news coverage, though not extensive, was nevertheless widespread. All major news sources covered it.
Kamal Raza Butt was also an adult. He was also killed in August 2005, like Anthony Walker. Like Christopher Yates, he was killed in a vicious attack by a gang who racially abused him. The news coverage... well, there wasn't any. Try searching for his name on BBC News. But wait, he was an ethnic minority man killed by whites! Kind of utterly disproves your theory, I think. Why compare Christopher with Anthony, but not with Kamal? Or Quadir? Or Bapishankar - who was killed in May 2004, closer to Christopher's attack than Anthony's was?
From Google News:
Results 1 - 10 of about 637 for anthony walker murder
Results 1 - 10 of about 31 for christopher yates murder
Your search - kamal raza butt murder - did not match any documents.
Your search - quadir ahmed murder - did not match any documents.
Your search - bapishankar kathirgamamathan murder - did not match any documents. |
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