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michaelambling
Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Location: Paradise
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, don't get how this works. The legal status of holocaust-denial varies from country to country. If Toben was violating Australian law in Australia(or on an Autralian server), he can be charged under Australian law. But he's being extradited from to Europe for something he did in Australia?
Suppose I start a website in Canada, on a Canadian server, and devote it to insulting the Chinese Communist Party. Can I be extradited to China for breaking their laws?
I'm wondering if the article about Toben is leaving something out. Was he using an EU-based web-server? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Yeah, don't get how this works. The legal status of holocaust-denial varies from country to country. If Toben was violating Australian law in Australia(or on an Autralian server), he can be charged under Australian law. But he's being extradited from to Europe for something he did in Australia?
Suppose I start a website in Canada, on a Canadian server, and devote it to insulting the Chinese Communist Party. Can I be extradited to China for breaking their laws?
I'm wondering if the article about Toben is leaving something out. Was he using an EU-based web-server? |
I don't know if this is relevant here, but here goes.
Jurisdictional questions concerning the internet is an emerging field of law, and in the States it can get quite complicated. Some questions I might have regarding your hypo:
1) Were you directing advertising on your website into China?
2) Were you linking to other sites that had a great deal of China-based traffic?
3) Were you making any other active efforts to draw Chinese traffic?
If the answer to all these questions is no, I think you would be safe. You might even be able to get away with #2, although if you were to allow web-ads directed at Chinese per #1, you might have other issues.
Note that I'm using what I learned in Civil Procedure for this. Jurisdiction for criminal matters might be a higher bar for the state to muster, so you might even be safe violating all three above. |
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kotakji
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Hmm I always kinda assumed that Extradition only covered actions that were illegal in both states? It seems odd that Australia would be compelled to extradite someone for an action that's not illegal in Australia. Or is holocaust denial illegal in Australia? |
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michaelambling
Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Location: Paradise
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| kotakji wrote: |
| Hmm I always kinda assumed that Extradition only covered actions that were illegal in both states? It seems odd that Australia would be compelled to extradite someone for an action that's not illegal in Australia. Or is holocaust denial illegal in Australia? |
It has nothing to do with Australia--the location of the servers is a non-sequitur, as has previously been noted. He was in the UK and extradited to Germany; in both countries, Holocaust denying is illegal, and it is an extraditable offense according to EU law. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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Michealambling wrote:
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| It has nothing to do with Australia--the location of the servers is a non-sequitur, as has previously been noted. He was in the UK and extradited to Germany; |
Well, I guess I was confused, because your link said...
The actual website seems not to be functioning right now, so I can't go back and see what the exact relevance of Autralia was. As I recall, though, the article wasn't really clear about in what way exactly he was doing this "in Australia". The guy apparently did live in Australia at some point. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm surprised Ernst Zundel was arrested in Tennessee. Andrew Jackson, a man who committed genocide against numerous Native American tribes, is idolized in Tennessee and is on the American $20 bill to this day. |
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kotakji
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| michaelambling wrote: |
It has nothing to do with Australia--the location of the servers is a non-sequitur, as has previously been noted. He was in the UK and extradited to Germany; in both countries, Holocaust denying is illegal, and it is an extraditable offense according to EU law. |
Ooops, I missed the part about being in Heathrow. The thought stands though- does the UK have laws about holocaust denial? I suppose Britain's membership in the EU muddys the waters.
I did notice this in the update:
"The warrant was dismissed by the court on October 29. The judge stated that the details it contained were "sparse". The German authorities had failed to specify the times and places of the alleged offences."
So it seems Im not the only one confused about the legalities at hand. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| The thought stands though- does the UK have laws about holocaust denial? |
I always thought that Germany was the only European country with laws prohibiting holocaust-denial specifically(ie. they actually single out the Nazi holocaust as illegal to deny). I think the UK has more generalized laws about promoting racial hatred or something. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Boy, Israel gets out of line and all of a sudden we have 15 threads on the Jews. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Boy, Israel gets out of line and all of a sudden we have 15 threads on the Jews. |
I kind of noticed that, too. Maybe the JDL won't be short of work in the near future. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Boy, Israel gets out of line and all of a sudden we have 15 threads on the Jews. |
I kind of noticed that, too. Maybe the JDL won't be short of work in the near future. |
I find it a bit surprising that Mises isn't more concerned about someone from one country being extradited to face hate-crime charges inanother country, given his deep concern(which I share) about Canadians being sujbected to domestic tribunals. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 13 countries: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Switzerland. Slovakia made Holocaust denial a crime in late 2001 but repealed the legislation in May 2005. Spain decriminalized Holocaust denial in October 2007.[93] Italy rejected a draft Holocaust denial law proposing a prison sentence of up to four years in 2007, the Netherlands rejected a draft law proposing a maximum sentence of one year in 2006 and before this the United Kingdom twice rejected a Holocaust denial law. Denmark and Sweden also have rejected Holocaust denial legislation. |
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In the United States, Holocaust denial is protected by the First Amendment to the US Constitution. |
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European Union
The European Union's executive Commission proposed a European Union wide anti-racism xenophobia law in 2001, which included the criminalization of Holocaust denial. On July 15, 1996, the Council of the European Union adopted the Joint action/96/443/JHA concerning action to combat racism and xenophobia.[101][102] During the German presidency there was an attempt to extend this ban.[103] Full implementation was blocked by Britain and the Nordic countries because of the need to balance the restrictions of voicing racist opinions against the freedom of expression.[104] As a result a compromise has been reached within the EU and while the EU has not prohibited Holocaust denial outright, a maximum term of three years in jail is optionally available to all member nations for "denying or grossly trivializing crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes." |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial#Laws_against_Holocaust_denial
For the record I think this law is silly and simply justifies a sense of persecution amongst the denialist community. |
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MothraAttack
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Interestingly, some German Holocaust historians have come about against anti-Holocaust denial laws.
For example:
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| Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past. |
Source of quote:
Brigitte Bailer-Galanda/Wolfgang Benz/Wolfgang Neugebauer (Hrg.), Die Auschwitzleugner, 1996 Elefanten Press, Berlin, page 261. Work cited: NStZ 1994, S. 392 (Baumann).
cited here: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008_02_01_archive.html |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Boy, Israel gets out of line and all of a sudden we have 15 threads on the Jews. |
I kind of noticed that, too. Maybe the JDL won't be short of work in the near future. |
I find it a bit surprising that Mises isn't more concerned about someone from one country being extradited to face hate-crime charges inanother country, given his deep concern(which I share) about Canadians being sujbected to domestic tribunals. |
Yeah, fair enough.
But put my reply in context. If this were a stand alone thread referencing Jews, I'd be much more receptive. But I actually counted. There were (are?) 15 on this page alone. |
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