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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:21 pm Post subject: Were Slaves Happy Campers? |
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Well, were they? Have we been lied to by our educational system and mislead into believing that slavery was a bad thing?
"Skousen's book characterized African-American children as "pickaninnies" and described American slave owners as the "worst victims" of the slavery system. Quoting the historian Fred Albert Shannon, "The Making of America" explained that "[slave] gangs in transit were usually a cheerful lot, though the presence of a number of the more vicious type sometimes made it necessary for them all to go in chains.""
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/09/16/beck_skousen/print.html
The article is relevant to some of the weirdness going on. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| The book kind of makes you wish that the south would rise again and crush the north. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Were Slaves Happy Campers? |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| "Skousen's book characterized African-American children as "pickaninnies" and described American slave owners as the "worst victims" of the slavery system. |
This is right up there with calling allowing the Bush tax cuts to lapse "class warfare," or saying, "Poor people are only poor because they choose to be poor." |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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They must have been a cheerful lot, singing all those great songs like "Amazing Grace" and playing those banjos. It sounds like fun. Nevermind being ripped away from your homeland forever and sent to another continent in chains, auctioned off, having your children sold, being beaten into doing grunt labor, and generally being treated like an animal. Sign me up.
>"Skousen's personal position," wrote a dismayed Quigley, "seems to me perilously close to the 'exclusive uniformity' which I see in Nazism and in the Radical Right in this country. In fact, his position has echoes of the original Nazi 25-point plan."
Um, aren't the Tea-Baggers the people who call Obama a Nazi? I guess these aren't generally people known for deep thinking. Interesting and frightening article.
Ken:> |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| The justification or condemnation of slavery depends not in any way on the feelings of the slaves. In other words, happy slaves don't justify slavery, and unhappy slaves don't condemn it. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Koveras wrote: |
| The justification or condemnation of slavery depends not in any way on the feelings of the slaves. In other words, happy slaves don't justify slavery, and unhappy slaves don't condemn it. |
I do think unhappy slaves, in the sense that slavery made them feel unhappy, is a point against slavery, yes. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| The slaves were also forced to clear mosquito infested swamps that none of the poor whites would touch. The book is just idiotic revisionism. If slavery was so good, why didn't the slaves just remain on the plantations with no earnings what so ever. |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Koveras wrote: |
| The justification or condemnation of slavery depends not in any way on the feelings of the slaves. In other words, happy slaves don't justify slavery, and unhappy slaves don't condemn it. |
I do think unhappy slaves, in the sense that slavery made them feel unhappy, is a point against slavery, yes. |
1) Then 'the slaves whom slavery made to feel happier' (a rather nebulous cause and effect, like yours) are 'a point for slavery'.
2) If the justification is based on feelings, there's nothing absolutely immoral about slavery, and it becomes an calculation between specific masters and slaves. Perhaps you agree with that, after all. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Koveras wrote: |
| 1) Then 'the slaves whom slavery made to feel happier' (a rather nebulous cause and effect, like yours) are 'a point for slavery'. |
I wonder how many people were truly made happy by slavery, though. Mind you, that's not the same as managing to find happiness despite slavery.
| Koveras wrote: |
| 2) If the justification is based on feelings, there's nothing absolutely immoral about slavery, and it becomes an calculation between specific masters and slaves. Perhaps you agree with that, after all. |
A Utilitarian would probably agree with you, and simply argue that slavery is de facto immoral because systematic slavery will almost invariably decrease overall happiness. |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Koveras wrote: |
| 1) Then 'the slaves whom slavery made to feel happier' (a rather nebulous cause and effect, like yours) are 'a point for slavery'. |
I wonder how many people were truly made happy by slavery, though. Mind you, that's not the same as managing to find happiness despite slavery. |
Precisely why I called it nebulous. Similarly one could point to slaves unhappy 'despite slavery,' or in other words who were by constitution dissatisfied. If they're anything like people today, that'd probably be a large proportion.
| Quote: |
| Koveras wrote: |
| 2) If the justification is based on feelings, there's nothing absolutely immoral about slavery, and it becomes an calculation between specific masters and slaves. Perhaps you agree with that, after all. |
A Utilitarian would probably agree with you, and simply argue that slavery is de facto immoral because systematic slavery will almost invariably decrease overall happiness. |
I would challenge that utilitarian to prove it. But my truck isn't really with that utilitarian, who is at least consistent, but with those who would claim slavery is absolutely wrong while basing this axiom on feelings.
In other words I'm not pro-slavery, but I am interested in good arguments for or against. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Koveras wrote: |
| Precisely why I called it nebulous. Similarly one could point to slaves unhappy 'despite slavery,' or in other words who were by constitution dissatisfied. If they're anything like people today, that'd probably be a large proportion. |
Well, it is nebulous insofar as it would be very hard to quantify, but if we're being totally realistic, do you think that being actively enslaved would overall tend to make someone more or less happy? Personally, I feel like slavery in and of itself would more often make someone less happy than more happy, but I'm judging that based on how I'd feel admittedly.
| Koveras wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Koveras wrote: |
| 2) If the justification is based on feelings, there's nothing absolutely immoral about slavery, and it becomes an calculation between specific masters and slaves. Perhaps you agree with that, after all. |
A Utilitarian would probably agree with you, and simply argue that slavery is de facto immoral because systematic slavery will almost invariably decrease overall happiness. |
I would challenge that utilitarian to prove it. But my truck isn't really with that utilitarian, who is at least consistent, but with those who would claim slavery is absolutely wrong while basing this axiom on feelings.
In other words I'm not pro-slavery, but I am interested in good arguments for or against. |
I understand that. I really do think it's true that being enslaved against your will would generally make you less happy -- especially if you realized you were enslaved, as opposed to say some sort of Matrix style world where you didn't realize it -- but I can't prove that's universally true for everyone, just for myself. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:08 am Post subject: |
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I've often surmised that African-American "slavery" was an exploration-era guest worker program.
Free food, a free place to stay, a mediocre salary, the requirement of a release letter to be free from the bounds of a "contract"
Wait, which profession are we referring to? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| I suppose it's just a lack of imagination on my part, but I'm finding it impossible to think of a situation where anyone would voluntarily surrender complete control of body and life to another and get happiness in return. Maybe someone could enlighten me on this point. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I suppose it's just a lack of imagination on my part, but I'm finding it impossible to think of a situation where anyone would voluntarily surrender complete control of body and life to another and get happiness in return. Maybe someone could enlighten me on this point. |
Well, I've heard of people who do this within the bounds of relationships because they feel it's fulfilling. Not just in bed either, but all day, every day.
Obviously they're fairly rare individuals, and obviously society would protect them if they changed their minds and wanted out, but it's the closest I can think of. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:59 am Post subject: |
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Koveras replied:
| Quote: |
| The justification or condemnation of slavery depends not in any way on the feelings of the slaves. In other words, happy slaves don't justify slavery, and unhappy slaves don't condemn it. |
Very well said, K.
Ta-ta Boy mused:
| Quote: |
| I suppose it's just a lack of imagination on my part,.... |
Probably
| Quote: |
| but I'm finding it impossible to think of a situation where anyone would voluntarily surrender complete control of body and life to another and get happiness in return. Maybe someone could enlighten me on this point. |
I think this describes Hefner's recent bevy of blond beauties at his Playboy mansion rather nicely, don't you think.
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Some slaves were no worse off than they would have been as slaves of other tribes in Africa--likely better. Those who worked in the mansions were treated better than the poor white trash brethren of the plantation owners--this is now well documented--although they still weren't free, obviously.
But there is no way to rationalize our way out of slavery--it was immoral. I would refer doubters to the eloquent words of the American Yankee poet John Greenleaf Whittier, a Quaker, in this regard. (Incidentally, a lovely tribute poem of Whittier was written by Winfield Townley Scott and speaks to this issue tangentially). |
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