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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:13 am Post subject: Collateral Murder |
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http://collateralmurder.com/
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5th april 2010 10:44 EST WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff.
Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded.
The military did not reveal how the Reuters staff were killed, and stated that they did not know how the children were injured.
After demands by Reuters, the incident was investigated and the U.S. military concluded that the actions of the soldiers were in accordance with the law of armed conflict and its own "Rules of Engagement".
Consequently, WikiLeaks has released the classified Rules of Engagement for 2006, 2007 and 2008, revealing these rules before, during, and after the killings.
WikiLeaks has released both the original 38 minutes video and a shorter version with an initial analysis. Subtitles have been added to both versions from the radio transmissions.
WikiLeaks obtained this video as well as supporting documents from a number of military whistleblowers. WikiLeaks goes to great lengths to verify the authenticity of the information it receives. We have analyzed the information about this incident from a variety of source material. We have spoken to witnesses and journalists directly involved in the incident.
WikiLeaks wants to ensure that all the leaked information it receives gets the attention it deserves. In this particular case, some of the people killed were journalists that were simply doing their jobs: putting their lives at risk in order to report on war. Iraq is a very dangerous place for journalists: from 2003- 2009, 139 journalists were killed while doing their work. |
Video in the link. It is horrific. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| I want to know who is going to be held responsible. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| I want to know who is going to be held responsible. |
Who will be held responsible? Not the people who should be. Probably nobody.
When I posted this link this AM I had watched only about 4-5 min of it. I've since watched all of it. It is much worse than I initially thought. It is sick. Vile. Disgusting. They kill people tending to the wounded. They're commenting the whole time in f-----g glee. It's just disgusting. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.
I have no idea what the situation was in that particular area at the time. What was the threat level in general? What intelligence information were they operating on? So many factors go into situations like this. It is very easy, unfortunately to pluck 20 minutes out of the larger context and say "how terrible war is."
Of course war is horrible. We do have the most lethal military in the history of mankind. At the same time we are also the most restrained, professional, and accountable military in the history of mankind. To state otherwise is pure ignorance. |
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machinoman
Joined: 12 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
| It is very easy, unfortunately to pluck 20 minutes out of the larger context and say "how terrible war is." |
what greater context would justify what happens in this video? did you watch it? |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| machinoman wrote: |
| T-J wrote: |
| It is very easy, unfortunately to pluck 20 minutes out of the larger context and say "how terrible war is." |
what greater context would justify what happens in this video? did you watch it? |
Yes, I watched it. A myriad of things including but not limited to insurgent activity in the recent past or chatter / intelligence of upcoming activity targeting civilians, Iraqi, and or coalition forces.
My turn for a question. Have you been there? |
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Sleepy in Seoul
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| Wow. Well, at least they weren't tortured. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.
I have no idea what the situation was in that particular area at the time. What was the threat level in general? What intelligence information were they operating on? So many factors go into situations like this. It is very easy, unfortunately to pluck 20 minutes out of the larger context and say "how terrible war is." |
These are people's lives we're talking about here. When a CEO makes a bad move and his company's value plumets, and you point out how he could have done better, that's monday morning quarterbacking. When you condemn the soldiers of your nation for needlessly killing civilians, that's not monday morning quarterbacking, it's holding them accountable. Well, more precisely it's crying out for them to be held accountable. In all likelihood, no real accountability will occur.
The fact that people can just shrug off things like this is almost as terrible as the fact that it happened. It also ensures that it will keep happening.
| T-J wrote: |
| Of course war is horrible. We do have the most lethal military in the history of mankind. At the same time we are also the most restrained, professional, and accountable military in the history of mankind. To state otherwise is pure ignorance. |
I think you'd have a very hard time showing that the United States Military is more restrained, professional, and accountable than the militaries of various Western powers who mostly keep their troops on domestic soil. So what are you basing your claim on, pure a priori assumption? I don't see how a military that goes around the world destabilizing countries and killing civilians is even a contender for the most restrained, professional, or accountable military in the world. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:29 am Post subject: |
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I didn't see a war crime. From 3:40-3:50 you can see a guy in the upper part of the frame swinging a rifle. Having a rifle near a gunfight pretty much means you are going to get shot at, and if shot at by a gunship, die horribly.
However, I was confused about the number. If you can spot a rifle as quickly as he did, I am surprised that he would have confused the camera stuff for an rpg. There are two gunships, are they talking about something off camera?
Last, the enjoyment they are feeling is pretty much par for course in war. I am lucky never to have been in one, but the older grizzled NCO's that I served with were some pretty hard bitten people. If you have seen the new Spielberg mini-series the Pacific, where instead of a bayoneting the enemy soldiers as ordered one reaches down to strangle a prisoner while looking into his eyes, thats pretty much what happens to some people. I didn't feel this gunship crew was all that bad.
Last, if the casual cruelty bothers you (as it does me) its an argument not to fight the war, because if you do, eventually things like this will be common. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| I didn't see a war crime. |
Shooting at a minivan picking up a wounded person is not a war crime?
The whole video is despicable. I watched it this morning and have spent the whole day processing that I saw roughly 12 people get killed for next to no reason. Also they were firing directly into a civilian area..a housing area. You really have to have better reasons to open fire. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:13 am Post subject: |
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I haven't read the ROE for this time and place. But yes from my limited understanding, people trying to assist wounded enemy would get shot, assuming that you think they are insurgents. As for firing into a housing area, if you feel that there is a threat, you would respond. Although having said that, I don't feel that 1 AK is much of a threat. A great deal depends on where those other weapons where. Was it an exaggeration, or are their separate groups being tracked?
You said that these people had died for no reason. As I see it, someone brought an AK to a gunfight. Was it a bodyguard just trying to protect his journalists? Quite possibly. As it stands now though, I don't see a prosecution coming from this. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
But yes from my limited understanding, people trying to assist wounded enemy would get shot, assuming that you think they are insurgents.
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It seems like the idea here is as follows. Identify one or more persons in a larger group as an insurgent(rightly or wrongly) = kill everyone around them and anyone who comes in contact with them (shows basic human kindness) when they are wounded. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
| Monday morning quarterbacking is easy. |
Yes it is. Those American soldiers are murderers. Maniacs with blood lust.
The next time there is an attack on the United States or American interests abroad I hope that nobody will use "they hate us for our freedom". Videos like this are new to American viewers but AJ et al run similar videos all the time. |
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