Korean Job Discussion Forums

[dulouz]

These is a conceptual angle to this but I'm not interested in that. I'd rather here the answer in terms of American HR practices. If I send a resume to an American business and insist I have supervisory experience, will the HR depart agree? Its still not that simple - when one applicant has experience in the exact same occupation setting versus an education setting I would assume the exact same occupation setting applicant gets a plus even when I have had over 1000 students under my charge.

What do you know?

[ddeubel]

You must be in a supervisory position. I don't / didn't understand a thing you said......

Not being mean, just doesn't make sense. In particular the phrase "insist I have supervisory experience" Of course they will agree, you should know what kind of experience you have/had. Sounds simple.

Could you elaborate for this blue collar billy....

[plattwaz]

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking here, but I *think* you are asking whether or not teaching experience counts as "supervisory" when applying to a position in a business or company....yes/no?

I was an HR Manager for quite a long time, and I would have to say that generally, no, teaching experience is not considered to be supervisory. Supervisory experience within the education sector would involve being Department Head or Head Teacher with other adult employees under your supervision. What you see as "supervising" your students is actually "educating" or "mentoring" and not the same kind of supervision.

Within a business setting supervision most often involves ensuring employees are performing required duties and tasks, perhaps monitoring employee attendance (authorizing vacation time, etc), and taking on more responsibilities than the others in your group or team. Many companies prefer those in supervisory positions to be a little older than other members of the team (or those being supervised) although that can't outright be requested due to employment equity. The supervisor will hold more responsibility when things go wrong, and is often the one responsible for reporting directly to a line manager about the progress of the others. These skills are not directly related to "supervising the educational progress and/or behavior of children." You can insist all you want what experience you have, but if they dont' feel it "qualifies" you, then that's the employer's choice.

That said, occassionally I have overlooked the requirement for supervisory experience, and recommended a candidate for employment that had never been a supervisor before, on the strength of other skills - a personality that I felt was well suited to the added responsibilities. It depends on the job position.

[Ya-ta Boy]

[dutchman]

Save your money. It's the most practical thing you will take with you when you leave Korea. Unless you're going into teaching back home your experience here will mean very little to a potential employer. Assume you'll be getting an entry-level position.

Money, save it. It will open many more doors than your ESL teaching experience.

[YoungLi]

[plattwaz]

[forgesteel]

Teaching is Management experience

I've done substitute teaching in California. I did it for two years. It is much harder than teaching in Korea (and pays significantly less), even though the regular teacher is generally expected to give you the lesson plan on a silver platter. Kids in America are much more prone to getting into real trouble, and you have WAY less authority in the kids' eyes, and in actual practice. You MUST be a tyrant in order to get the kids to behave reasonably well in America. As a sub, you MUST limit their behavior options radically if you want to work consistently and not get letters written about you from the administration.

That said, I can imagine some high pressure environments, and other variables where your management or supervisory experience might not be all that applicable to the job in question. But generally, your experience is VERY supervisory, and very management related. It is no stretch to claim this. I'd back it up with the latest trendy book on management, and the latest buzzwords in the industry you are applying to. Car dealership mangement is different from restaurant management is different from high tech cubicle mangement, etc. etc. Learn your interested industry's buzzwords, practices, and expectations.

I can't imagine that a restaurant manager applying to a restaurant manager position would NOT be given the job, over you, all other things being equal. Just like you, all other things being equal, will be given the chance to go get a Master's degree before some guy who 'likes the idea' of teaching, but doesn't yet have his Bachelor's degree (asuming you are a legal E-2 visa holder).

It works the same all over. There's horizontal movement and there's vertical movement. Horizontal movement is retaining the same title or employing the same skills to do your job. Vertical movement is undertaking more difficult tasks, and developing different abilities (or conversely, undertaking less difficult tasks).

If you look at what the word management means, no one will doubt that teaching is management experience. Only one 'problem:' it's experience specific to an industry, that is: education. Therefore there is only limited applicability to your mangement skills, that you can apply RIGHT NOW, without some training first. Therefore, if interested in mangement more broadly, I recommend you look for 'management trainee' positions.

There's horizontal movement within an organization (say: within Wonjangnim's hagwon), within a particular field (say: education) and then horizotal movement generally (say from St4rbuck's barrista to filing clerk at W4sh1ngt0n Mu7u4L). Then there's vertical movement within an organization (say: from teacher to senior teacher at the same org), vertical movement within a field (like Will Hunting in the movie), and vertical movement generally (say from V0n5 night merchandise stocker to computer programmer at M1cro50ft). Then there's combinations of the preceding. The less overall movement involved is the one who gets hired. The assumption is that change is bad (represents risk), and that the recent past is the best indicator of the future. That's the logic behind the idea of "the less movement needed to successfully undertake one's tasks is the best." That's why generally, it's a hellava lot easier to 'get in on the bottom floor' than to go straight to the top in any organization. Power is concentrated at the top, not the bottom. There's plenty of room at the bottom, none at the top. Go become a janitor at your favorite company, and become the next Good Will Hunting, for that company.

Cheers,

[plattwaz]

But the reality of it is -- you can INSIST all you want that you have management experience. Some hiring managers/HR managers might be willing to accept teaching as acceptable, some might not.

You are best to contact the HR department of the company directly, or the hiring manager (ie/ if it's a sales position, contact the sales manager, etc). Speak to them and tell them that you've applied for the position, and that you feel you have gained top supervisory experience from your role as a teacher, and that you are really eager to meet them for an interview. It might be the difference between getting an interview or not.

Personally, I still feel that teaching is not considered to be appropriate supervisory experience for most "business" environment positions -- supervising groups of 8-16 year olds is NOT the same as supervising and managing a team of peers.

But it really depends on the position you are applying for. In my previous life, I would have agreed that your teaching experience was acceptable to get you a position as team leader for one of our company's production assembly lines, where you are supervising a group of 35 people, many who speak English as their second language, are earning minimum wage, and check in and out on a time clock - where responsibilities include reporting to a direct line/division manager about "concerns," and include group motivation, and the like. But, I would not be willing to accept it for a position as an Inside Sales Manager where you are supervising 5 middle-aged experienced sales representatives who are each working on 5 million dollar budgets and you are responsible for account divisions, team leading, project management, etc etc.

So, again, it depends on the company, the position, the situation, etc.

[forgesteel]

Are they ages 8-16? If he teaches university, they are ages 19+. I teach at a hagwon. I teach ALL ages.

Besides, everyone knows, supervising Kindergarten aged kids is much more difficult than watching over 35-year olds. So, I am not sure about the validity of your (plattwaz) reasoning. Address my points please if you want to consider yourself to have refuted them.

We all know what management skills are if we are a teacher. We know, because that is the skill set we are getting paid to use. Management is not special. Stop trying to make out like it is.

plattwaz said:
>Personally, I still feel that teaching is not considered to be appropriate supervisory experience for most "business" environment positions...

Of course it isn't 'ideal,' it's a horizontal shift: from the education field to some field in business (we're assuming until OP tells us more). And movement is 'bad.' Read my previous post on this simple concept. But it isn't totally inapplicable experience either. Management experience is management experience. All elsebeing equal, s/he who moves the least (total horizontal and vertical movement) gets the job.

Cheers,

[plattwaz]

[forgesteel]

[YoungLi]

I know it's not my position to defend plattwaz but I tend to agree with his/her posts. If you've never been in "management" for a company or otherwise in America you cannot fully understand the evil rotten politics that exist in that world. I have plenty of horror stories (to put it lightly) that would make any sane person considering a management position want to seriously reconsider. Truely, management takes a special type of personality just as being a teacher of children takes a special type of person.

No one here is saying that there needs to be a poll to decide which is "harder" managment v. teaching. What would it prove anyway... nothing. It's really a personal decision/opinion to decide which is easier for him/herself (management or teaching). Only if you have done both can you really come up with an informed/experienced opinion on the matter. Management is extremely political; it's riddled with nepotism, racism, sexism and every other kind of ugly ism out there and it's pervasive, acceptable, encouraged even. Civil rights are a total JOKE in the minds of most upper management; sure they give good lip service but their actions speak a whole different story. Get into management just about anywhere in America and you learn to accept this fact or you get out. That's the ugly truth in the matter.

Remember I'm just the messenger so don't get angry with me just because I tell it just like it is. I couldn't STAND the way management operated in that culture and that's why I got out. No regrets at this point either. If management were easy, everyone would be doing it. I found it incredibly difficult to compromise my ethics and moral upbringing...... impossible to fire someone because she/he was of a certain race that upper management didn't like.... impossible to show favortism towards people that upper management "likes" better that others.... impossible to put my job over my grandmother who's lying on the floor in my store and needs to go to the hospital NOW... impossible to spend my entire night in a store that was robbed because the company was too cheap to have an alarm system... impossible to take personal responsibility for employees and customers who stole from the company and on and on and on. Hence, my signature... see below:

[forgesteel]

[Hater Depot]

You know, YoungLi, you can just go ahead and quote me by name if it will help you continue to feel superior to me. I really don't mind.