Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[tisogai]

Please help me get a better understanding of subjunctive mood.

1. If it rained tomorrow, I would be at home.
2. If it should rain tomorrow, I would be at home.
3. If it should rained tomorrow, I will be at home.
4. If it were to rain tomorrow, I would be at home.

#1 is a basic I'm OK with.

Re #2 and 3, when should is used, does it mean you think it highly unlikely or something? Do you atually use should in spoken or written form of English?

What is the difference between #2(would) and 3(will) if any??

Re #4, what is "were to" here? Do you actually expect someone to use that?

Thanks.

[CP]

1. If it rained tomorrow, I would be at home. OK.

2. If it should rain tomorrow, I would be at home. Better: If it should rain tomorrow / if it rains tomorrow, I will be at home.

3. If it should rained tomorrow, I will be at home. No. You cannot use the past participle "rained." It should be, If it should rain tomorrow, I will be at home.

4. If it were to rain tomorrow, I would be at home. OK.

People do use all these forms in written and spoken English. The sequence of tenses:

If it rains, I will be happy.
If it rained, I would be happy.
If it had rained, I would have been happy.
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[tisogai]

Hi CP, thanks.
"Rained" in #3 was my typo. Sorry.

My question was "Is there any specific intention to use should?"

If it should rain tomorrow, I would be at home.
If it should rain tomorrow, I will be at home.
What's the difference between the two above??

What difference is made when you use "were to"??

I'm OK with the very basic of subjv.. But I find a bit confusing when should and were to come in.

Thanks again.

[rice07]

Hi

Citing "Practical English Usage" as saying:

1.If I come or If I came?

=>The difference between , for exsample,if I come and if I came is not necessarily a difference of time. They can both refer to the future; but the past tense suggests that a future situation is impossible,imaginary or less probable.

Compare:
- If I become President, I'll...(said by a candidate in an election)

- If I became President, I'd...(said by a schoolboy)

- If I win this race, I'll...(said by the fastes runner)

- If I won this race, I'd...(said by the slowest runner)

- Will it be all right if I bring a friend?(direct request)

- Would it be all right if I brought a friend?(less direct,more polite)

2.If I were...

We often use were instead of was after if. This is common in both formal and informal styles .In a formal style were is more common than was, and many people consider it more correct,especially in American English. The grammatical name for this use of were is 'subjuctive'.

- If I were rich, I would spend all my time travelling.

- If my nose were a little shorter I'd be quite pretty.

[tisogai]

Hi Rice07, thanks! But, I must be really bad at asking questions. I'm having a hard time making myself understood. Very sorry about that.

Would you please reread my question if possible?
I was asking particulary about the combinations of "should + will"
and "should + would".

Do you find anything in your book??

Thanks so much.

[rice07]

Hi Tisogai

I'm sorry to say- NO, I looked for the answers you wanted in that book but failed. Maybe I can give you the answers you're trying to find out tomorrow, as remebered seeing those examples in my another grammer book not handy for now,which was writen in chinese. But I'll try to tranlate them into English for you.

[CP]

[rice07]

Hi Tisogai

Note:It's impossible for 'must' to be used in the subj. mood which refers to the hypothesis are opposite to the truth at this moment and the future.(must is not used in the folloeing structures, A,Band C)

A. less possible(unlikely) to happen

If+s+should+v root, s+would/could/might/should/ought to+v root


1. If you should fall in ill, the meeting would be put off.
=In case you fell ill,the.....
=Should you fall ill,.....
??=If you fell ill,...
=>You're unlikely to fall ill,and the meeting will be held as scheduled.

This point I agree with Cp, because 'should' means 'in case' while 'if' has already suggested this message. Maybe it's something like 'I do love cats' to stress the mood I guess.

2. If it should rain, I could stay at home.
= In case it rained,....
= Should it rain,....
= If it rained,.....

=> It's unlikely to rain,and I'll go out.(unlikely to stay at home)


B. very possible(likely) to happen

If+s+should + v root, s+will/can/may/should/ought to +v root

1. If you should fall ill, the meeting will be put off.
=In case you fell ill,.....
=Should you fall ill,....
=If you fell ill,...

=> You're more than likely to fall ill,and the meeting will be put off.

C. These following structures are the use of subj. mood to strongly indicate that a hypothesis and the truth are opposite.

If+s+were to+v root,s+would/could/might/should/ought to+v root


Truth: The cat can't smile.

Hypothesis: If the cat were to smile,I would pass out.

Truth: The sun rises in the east.

Hypothesis: The sun were to rise in the west,how surprised the sunflower would be.


I'm not sure whether the above I post conveys you a well understading or the anwsers you've been wanted? If not, due to my limmitted ability over English. Pardon me! Maybe Cp could provide us with some good one(s).



Hi Cp

Nice seeing you! Allow me to digress for a minute. I remember seeing a story you posted in the learning English forum, about a girl from Hong Kong who was 14 years at that moment asking you a question about 'squirrel'. I felt that was a very good story and interesting. even for now when I think of it, it makes me smile(I wouldn't use 'make me laugh',as is something- a little bit imoplite.)

Have a good day!

[rice07]

"or the answers you've been wanted" should be " or the answers you've been wanting to know".

[rice07]

Hi

1.In "Note" paragraph: folloeing=>following

hypothesis=>hypotheses



2 Sorry! Lack of sleeing,makes such an impulsive person like me have a lot of typos.

[CP]

[rice07]

Hi Cp
Qoted you as saying- Thank you. It was a true story, too. I'm glad you liked it.

I guess word "too" meaning that you've read my post named "A bad story carrying inspiration", and if you don't mind,may I ask for some comment from you (either corrections or ...will do). That a good way to find out things that I didn't see. I hope that I haven't worn out my welcome!

Have a good day!

[tisogai]

Hi Rice07, thanks for your post and time spent!

I understood;

should + will -- likely to happen
should + would -- unlikely to happen

That's what I wanted to know. It's clear now.
But CP disapproves of "should + would" and I value native English speaking teachers' opinions as well as what text books say.

So I'll remember both and probably won't use "should + would" unless it's particularly required to solve questions.

Thanks again, CP and Rice07.

[rice07]

Hi

Oh! Thanks God!

I've been thinking if I made you confused with that, but it seems I got another thought.Great ! I'm glad you've made it clear.


BTW, Tisogai, I justsent you a message to your PM before this, please check.