Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[whatdaheck]

Hi there
Kindly elaborate the correct use of ''until'' and ''till''..and "up to" as well..I often get confused!
Is it correct to ask ''what time'' or ''when'' is a better option?
Thanks a lot
-Maham-

[tyreless]

Hello Maham
As far as I can see there is no difference between ''till'' and ''until''.
(1) We had to stay until/till he was ready to leave.
(2) We stayed until/till they finished their meal.
(3) We will stay until/till it stops raining.
Reverse order is possible though uncommon
(5)Until/till he was ready to leave, we had to stay.
(6) Until/till they finished their meal, we stayed.
(7) Until/till it stops raining, we will stay.
When talking about the present times ''till/until'' can be substituted with ''so far''
(8 So far/till now/until now he always came at eight.
''So far'' can�t be used for referring to the past or future.
''up to'' is used to talk about quantity whereas ''till/until'' is used to talk about time
(9) A normal car can seat up to five people.
All the same expressions like ''up to the moment'' can be used to talk about time
(10) Everything went just fine up to the moment/till/until the police arrived.
Take care not to mix these up with
(11) I have to keep my computer security up to date. = I have to regularly install new antivirus software on my computer.
(12) Are you up to it? = Are you able to do it?
(13) He�s up to some mischief. = He intends to do something naughty.

''what time'' versus ''when''
Both are perfectly correct. ''What time?'' or ''When exactly?'' can be used to ask the exact hour when something happened or is due to happen
Q When will you arrive?
A Thursday morning.
Q What time?/When exactly?
A Eight o�clock in the morning.
Hope that helps
David

[whatdaheck]

Hey
Thanks, it helped a lot !
Umm, just one more confusion..
What about ''you can't go there until she comes back''.. I mean while I'm saying something negative (not), the use of until/till is still the same?
I was vague about ''until'' so far. I always thought "until" can only be used where I'm not using ''not''...
Anyway, no more confusion..
-Maham-

[tyreless]

Hello Maham
No problem at all.

[whatdaheck]

Yeah all clear...thanks a lot!
Just one more question..elaborate the use of ''up till''..
Thanks again
-Maham-

[tyreless]

Hello Maham
"up till" behaves like until/ till, up to the moment etc and means exactly the same. The only real difference ist that some expressions are more common than others. Problem is that expressions like "up till the moment" are very uncommon so I took the liberty of elaborating on an alternative structure using "before"

(Past tense)
(1) Until then he had never been late.
Until then (17 million hits) can be substituted by: till then (3.6 million hits), up until then (1.1 million hits), up to that moment (529.000 hits), up till then (171.000 hits), up until that moment (37.00 hits) and up till that moment (2.000 hits). (NOTE: figures are result of a frequency search on google.)
(2) Till then he had never been late.
Alternatively following structure is possible:
(3) He had never been late before.
"before"can not be used in affirmative sentences:
(4) *He had always been late before.*

Usage remains the same in the present but some of the prepositions change:
Until then = until now, till then = till now, up to this moment = up to that moment = up to this moment etc.
(5) Until now I have never seen a leopard. Better: I've never seen a leopard before.
(6) Till now I never thought about it. Better: I never thought about it before.

Again the same goes for future tense:
until now = until then, up to this moment = up to that moment etc
(7) Up till then she will never have met him. (negative) Better: She will never have met him before. (negative)
(8 Up till that moment she will always have been on time. (affirmative)(uncommon) Or: She will never have been late before. (negative)

Until/till then and not to mention constructions like "up till the moment" have two disatvantages
a) they can be very lengthy and dominate a sentence. Compare:
(9) Up till that moment she will never have met him.
This problem can be solved by replacing the preposition "up till this moment" with "before", which goes in final position.
(10) She will never have met him before.
The use of "before" is comon practice in such cases.
b) If the initial position is occupied by the preposition "up till the moment" etc questions can not be formed using initial "do" or "have"
(11) *Have up till that moment she will have met him?*
Moving the preposition to the end would produce:
(12) Will she have met him up till that moment/till then? (Possible, but since new the new information tends to go at the end of the sentence this place shouldn't be occupied by such a lengthy preposition. Better
(13) Will she have met him before?
(14) She will have met him, won't she.
This structure is called "tag questions". The "until" is implicit here.

Until/till, up till, up till then etc have so far been used as preposition. They can also be used as conjunctions.
(15) We stayed until/till they had finished their meal.
((subject+verb+conjunction+subject(of subordinate clause)+verb+object)
Before can be used here
(16) We couldn't leave before they had finished their meal.Questions can be formulated like this:
(17) Did we have to stay until/till/up till they had finished their meal?
(18 We couldn't leave before they had finished their meal, could we?
(Since the speaker is talking about past events and did stay this can only be regarded as a rethorical question). If used with present/future reference were dealing with a genuine question.
(19) We will be able to leave before the finish their meal, won't we?
Sounds as though the waiter wants to home.

Please let me know if this answer is of any use to you as I have strayed quiet a bit from the original question.
David
_________________
Consume less - live more

[whatdaheck]

Thanks..
Use of up till is almost uncommon..that's why I hardly heard it..
Thanks again:)