Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[ClarissaMach]

I have the feeling the question probably sounds dumb for native speakers... well, what is the difference between lined and unlined books?
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Stormy Weather.

[Suzanne]

Hello!

It's not a dumb question at all--that's how we learn!

I think you may be asking about writing paper or notebooks. When you buy notebooks or paper to write on, you can choose between unlined--or blank--pages, and pages with lines already printed on them. In schools and businesses, notebooks are lined, so students can write in straight lines. Unlined paper is usually something like stationery, for writing personal letters or for drawing/sketching.

Please let me know if this is what you meant.

Keep asking those questions!

[ClarissaMach]

Hi, Suzanne! Thanks for your reply, but I'm not sure that this is what I meant.

I'm currently reading "Oliver Twist", by Charles *beep*; in chapter 9, there's the following dialogue between the personage Jew, the leader of a gang of child pickpockets, and one of his kids, named Dodger:

"Well," said the Jew, glancing slyly at Oliver, and addressing himself to the Dodger, "I hope you've been at work this morning, my dears?"

"Hard," replied the Dodger.

"As Nails," added Charley Bates.

"Good boys, good boys!" said the Jew. "What have you got, Dodger?"

"A couple of pocket-books," replied that young gentleman.

"Lined?" inquired the Jew, with eagerness.

"Pretty well," replied the Dodger, producing two pocketbooks; one green, and the other red.

"Not so heavy as they might be," said the Jew, after looking at the insides carefully; "but very neat and nicely made. Ingenious workman, ain't he, Oliver?"

"Very, indeed, sir," said Oliver. At which Mr. Charles Bates laughed uproariously; very much to the amazement of Oliver, who saw nothing to laugh at, in anything that had passed .
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Stormy Weather.

[Suzanne]

Hello!

Thank you for providing such a great explanation! I tried to do a Google search to give you a proper response, but I wasn't successful.

Here's the thing: Oliver Twist was written in 1838. English, like all languages, is constantly changing. So, a term or phrase that was known in 1838 may be completely unknown or inapplicable 171 years later. In 2009, we don't use "lined or unlined" books anymore.

To read classical literature, try not to get caught up in all the details, or think that you need to understand everything. Just go for the overall meaning.

If a native speaker were to read "Oliver Twist" today, we would just skip over the parts that we don't understand, or that don't apply in today's world. The important thing is the story of how these young children were treated.

Does that help?

[ClarissaMach]

Hello, Suzanne. I appreciate your efforts trying to explain this point.

Actually I usually read books, especially old ones, not paying so much attention to this kind of detail; but as I'm currently dedicating myself towards learning as much vocabulary as possible, I've been trying to read books studying every small word I don't know.

Thanks a lot for your answers.

C.
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Stormy Weather.

[dragn]

Hi Clarissa,

I did some checking around out of curiosity, and I believe the reference is most likely to hand-worked linen pocketbooks that were popular in both England and America during most of the 18th century. Apparently, better quality ones had inner linings that were made of either wool or silk, and were prized by both men and women (although the styles for men and women differed somewhat). So, lined here would probably refer to a pocketbook with such a wool or silk lining on the inside.

Even after managing to dig up that archaic tidbit, I echo Suzanne's advice. English has changed a lot over the last two centuries.

Clarissa, I'm just wondering...are you reading "Oliver Twist" for your studies or just on your own to improve your English? I feel compelled to ask because if you just decided read it to improve your English, there are much better choices--and I certainly mean no disrespect to Charles D-i-c-k-e-n-s.

If you have to read it for your studies, then good luck. And follow Suzanne's advice.

dragn

This is a real hoot! Clarissa, if you're wondering why the name of the author of "Oliver Twist" appears as "Charles *beep*", I think I just figured it out. This web site must have some kind of obscene language filter that substitutes *beep* for any offensive word. The word d-i-c-k-e-n-s (without the hyphens, of course) is an extremely mild, old-fashioned swear word that originally was a reference to the devil. By today's standards, it's about as offensive as saying "Gosh!" For example, you might hear somebody say "It hurts like the d-i-c-k-e-n-s!" Somebody should tell Dave that Charles D-i-c-k-e-n-s deserves a little more respect than that!

[ClarissaMach]

Dragn, thanks for the answer, I had grown even more curious.

I'm reading Oliver Twist for two reasons: so far, I have never read nothing by Charles D, although he's one of the most famous English authors; besides, I thought I could improve my English.

In my native language, Portuguese, reading books written in the 19th century helps one to improve his/her command of the language, despite the fact that it has changed a lot, too (some Brazilians simply find it impossible reading Machado de Assis, for example). I thought it would be the same with the English language. If you think there are better choices, could you please mention some of them?

About the D.i.c.k.e.n.s thing, don't worry, I had noticed it before!
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Stormy Weather.

[Suzanne]

Dragn, I'm impressed! Great detective work!!

Funny about the "bleep" with Charles D-------s' last name!

And I completely agree with you: if reading for "fun" (I don't think Charles D. is much fun) there are lots of better choices. As I recall, he was paid by the word, so his books have a lot of extra material.

Clarissa: While it's good to know about classical literature, unless it's a class assignment, I'd suggest that you read a sample--although there are plenty of English speakers who never read a classic! There are some wonderful, interesting books available today.

Good contribution, dragn--I enjoy reading your comments.

[ClarissaMach]

[dragn]

For my more intrepid students here in Taiwan, I like to recommend Amy Tan, a Chinese-American writer with a very clear, straightforward style. (The Joy Luck Club, etc.)

I am reminded of the time one of my students came to me with questions about The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien. An intermediate level student, he had made up his mind that he was by gosh going to read a novel--and that was his choice. I wanted to cry. No offense to Tolkien fans out there, but as a first novel for an intermediate level student? Just shoot me.

dragn

[CP]

It is not about lined books and unlined books, but about pocket books, that is, wallets and purses. A lined pocketbook is a wallet "lined" with money. The leader of the pickpockets (people who take people's wallets and other valuables out of their pockets), asks whether the pickpockets have been hard at work:

"Well," said the Jew, glancing slyly at Oliver, and addressing himself to the Dodger, "I hope you've been at work this morning, my dears?"

"Hard," replied the Dodger. [Yes, we've been hard at work.]

"As Nails," added Charley Bates. [Hard as nails.]

"Good boys, good boys!" said the Jew. "What have you got, Dodger?"

"A couple of pocket-books," replied that young gentleman. [A couple of wallets or purses.]

"Lined?" inquired the Jew, with eagerness. [Lined with money?]

"Pretty well," replied the Dodger, producing two pocketbooks; one green, and the other red. [Pretty well lined--they had some money in them.]

"Not so heavy as they might be," said the Jew, after looking at the insides carefully; "but very neat and nicely made. Ingenious workman, ain't he, Oliver?" [Not so full of money as we would like, but nice wallets and purses.]

"Very, indeed, sir," said Oliver. At which Mr. Charles Bates laughed uproariously; very much to the amazement of Oliver, who saw nothing to laugh at, in anything that had passed .
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You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[dragn]

I considered that possibility, but wasn't completely convinced by the context. But yeah, I agree. It could be that, too.

dragn

[ClarissaMach]