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bomb attack in Madrid today
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oinrocinu



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 76
Location: Barcelona, Spain

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, these attack are made only because of religion? What a pity!
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obelix



Joined: 09 Feb 2003
Posts: 304

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osama bin Laden has scored a victory with this bombing. Already the new Spanish government is getting set to run away from Iraq.
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oinrocinu



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 76
Location: Barcelona, Spain

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the promise of moving back from Iraq was made by the new elected prime minister during the election campaign, 1 month ago. The 91% of Spanish people disagreed with the participation of Spain in Iraq war and this has to be taken into account. They only do what they promised and I don't want to be represented in Iraq reconstruction after an illegal and immoral war.

I only want to say that this promise was made before the attacks. And there habe been many "odd things" during these last days, months and years. These atacks have been the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Now, I can see optimism in the people face.

L.
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 494
Location: Guam, USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bin Laden and Al-Queda wanted the Americans out of Saudi Arabia, and that is why the September 11th attacks happened. In Spain, Al-Queda wanted the Spanish people to stop helping the Americans in Iraq. This is why Spain was targetted. Now, in France it seems that Al-Queda is displeased about French policy regarding Islamic headscarfs and are currently threatening to attack France.

Whenever Al-Queda wants something, do you think that they will use diplomacy? The next time they want something from Spain, what do you think they will do if Spain decides to disagree with them?
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French Probe Threats by Islamic Group
1 hour, 57 minutes ago Add World - AP to My Yahoo!


By PIERRE-ANTOINE SOUCHARD, Associated Press Writer

PARIS - Officials are investigating threats issued by a radical Islamic group against France and its overseas interests, the Justice Ministry said Tuesday.

The shadowy group identified itself as the "Servants of Allah the Powerful and Wise," the ministry said in a statement, adding that the group was unknown to French authorities.

Justice officials did not disclose the nature of the threats, but RTL radio reported that Le Parisien newspaper received a letter threatening Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin over France's plan to ban Islamic head scarves and other religious apparel in schools.

"The letter only mentioned the head scarf," Jacques Esperandieu, deputy editor of the Parisien, told RTL.

In February, an audiotape purportedly from Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)'s top lieutenant criticized France's decision to ban religious symbols from schools, legislation seen by many in the Arab world as anti-Muslim.

That recording, which was attributed to Ayman al-Zawahri, said: "The decision of the French president to issue a law to prevent Muslim girls from covering their heads in schools is another example of the Crusader's malice, which Westerners have against Muslims."

Al-Zawahri, an Egyptian-born physician, is thought to be with bin Laden in hiding somewhere along the Pakistan-Afghanistan (news - web sites) border. The tape was aired Al-Arabiya, the Dubai-based Arab-language satellite channel.

In the past weeks, French authorities have received terror threats from another little-known group that calls itself AZF.

The group claims to have planted nine bombs along the country's rail network and has threatened to explode them unless it is paid millions of dollars.

Information from AZF led to the recovery Feb. 21 of an explosive device buried in the bed of a railway line near Limoges in central France.

Since the Sept. 11 attacks against the United States, France has arrested dozens of terror suspects.

Authorities dismantled a terror cell in 2002 with ties to Chechen rebels and al-Qaida that planned bomb or toxic gas attacks in France and Russia. Among the suspected targets was the Russian Embassy in Paris.

The American Embassy in Paris was the target of a foiled bomb plot in 2001. Franco-Algerian Djamel Beghal, a prime suspect in the plot, was arrested in the United Arab Emirates in July 2001 and handed over to French custody.

Shoe-bomber Richard Reid, a British convert to Islam, was aboard an American Airlines flight from Paris to Miami in Dec. 2001 when he tried but failed to detonate explosives in his shoes.
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oinrocinu



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 76
Location: Barcelona, Spain

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, do we have to wait, to invade a country with the excuse of the existence of non-existent weapons, to be against the ONU?

This was a promise and I don't agree with Iraq's ocuppation, so I agree with this prosime.

If somebody is pointing a gun at you and you have killed his family and occuped his house and he wants you to go out of it, what do you do? They are terrorist and terrorist comes from "terror"...

Do we have to be the lapdog of USA? Why?

L.
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 494
Location: Guam, USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spain was never a lapdog to the United States. The US never pointed a gun to your leader's head. He made the choice he thought was best. Just look at France. They didn't follow the United States. The French made their choice just as Japan, Australia, Canada, Great Britain, and all other countries. Your leader always had a choice despite that you may not always agree with your leader's decision. Everyone knows that the French did not get involved with the war in Iraq, so why is Al-Queda threatening the French? Why don't they use diplomacy with the French since the French opposed the war in Iraq? And most importantly, why is Al-Queda so concern about the "internal" policy of the French? Doesn't the French have a right to make laws in their own country?

Do you honestly think that Al-Queda really cares about the war in Iraq? Why would Al-Queda and Osama Bin Laden care about Saddam Hussein who have been killing millions of muslims? Did you ever ask yourself that question? Do you honestly think that this is really all about Iraq?

The US didn't make your country into a lapdog because your country always had a choice just like the French. On the other hand, do you want to be a lapdog to Al-Queda? And do you think Al-Queda will even give you that choice?
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oinrocinu



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 76
Location: Barcelona, Spain

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do we have to be with or against USA? I know that Al Qaeda is a terrorist group and here, in Spain, we know a lot about terrorism groups, you can be sure. But we don't want to be involved in an illegal invasion, this is all.

If you think that Al Qaeda has nothing to do with Iraq war, why do you say: "In Spain, Al-Queda wanted the Spanish people to stop helping the Americans in Iraq. This is why Spain was targetted. [...] The next time they want something from Spain, what do you think they will do if Spain decides to disagree with them?".

A question: why do we have to help Americans in Iraq? This is what Spanish people don't understand...

And no, Sapin is not a lapdog of USA, but Aznar has been a lapdog od Bush.
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Anxious Heart



Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This disscussion made out an interesting point. In fact it is often really doesn't matter, if a political action is accerptable or not, but if another power supports it or a terroristical group is against it or whatever. Now it looks like the war in Iraq wasn't bad, because it was a war and people died, dreams were destroyed, houses bombed down, etc.... it looks like it was bad, because the a terroristac group attacked a country, which supported (no, not the whole counry, the gouvernment) the war.
These are politics. A complex system of contracts and promises, of propaganda and publicity.... it doesn't matter, what happens, it is just important, how the media presents it. And that is one of the factors, the world won't get better as long as this system exists.
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asterix



Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 1654

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because a country sends help to its ally does not make it a lapdog.
No doubt you will have cause, in Spain, to regret your recent choice of government.
Appeasement does not work with psychopaths now any better than it worked with the psychopath, Hitler, in 1939.
Al Queda sees the west as being decadent and soft and an easy target. I think what happened in Spain has proved them correct.
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Dordi



Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 84
Location: Helsinki, Finland

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard people talking about the attacks and even here in Finland some people are afraid. "Finland never was with USA in public, but who knows what's the truth" that is what I hear people saying every day. I don't know what to think, it really is psychopathic to do something like those attacks! Killing innocent people just like that! It's mental! Crying or Very sad Mad
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oinrocinu



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 76
Location: Barcelona, Spain

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh, just two things:

-the comparision of the lapdog is because Aznar has been acting as a lapdog, not only with the war, but with many others things. He has felt himself superior, important, working with Bush to construct a better world, appearing in Azores' picture, dealing with crucial things for de world. Puaj...

-The change of Government has had many reasons. One of them was the attack, but have you heard something about loads of lies, the sinking of the oil tanker "Prestige" and the oil slick, the strikes made against the new education law, the imposition of the religion (i.e. catholic) clases at school, the general strike of 2002, the problems with the water plan, the new immigration law, the manipulation of the media.... and much more problems. The fact was that there has been 2.000.000 of people who didn't know to vote or not to vote and stay at home but they knew these problems. The Popular Party has lost a few voters but the key has been this strong impact thas has made people think "well, ok, I will go to vote instead of stay at home". And this is not my opinion, is a fact.

L.
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oinrocinu



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 76
Location: Barcelona, Spain

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And one more thing:

the last governmet maintined that the resposible of the attack was ETA because they knew that they were going to lose if it was AlQaeda. Now, Wednesday, we know that they hided information, they said to the Spanish ambassadors in others countries to maintain in the media that the guilty was ETA, even the Saturday!... This manipulation has had consequences (and reactions) even in UNO or European Union.

I think that these are more than enough reasons to change the government, aren't these?

L.
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 494
Location: Guam, USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oinrocinu wrote:


If you think that Al Qaeda has nothing to do with Iraq war, why do you say: "In Spain, Al-Queda wanted the Spanish people to stop helping the Americans in Iraq. This is why Spain was targetted. [...] The next time they want something from Spain, what do you think they will do if Spain decides to disagree with them?".


Al-Queda doesn't care about the Iraq War because they are now killing innocent Iraqis. Al-Queda only cares about itself and will kill anyone including muslims. They are also going after France and Russia who OPPOSED the US-war in Iraq. So, what does that tell you? They say that they target Spain so Spain will not support the United States. Al-Queda's goal is to DIVIDE the western nations so they can easily defeat the US and the rest of the western world. In fact, Al-Queda wrote a letter to the Americans in November, 2002. In their letter, they listed 7 demands they wanted from the United States. The FIRST thing they listed on their demands is for the United States to convert to Islam.

Al-Queda is waging a war against the western world.

By the way, I heard in one of the Iraqi blogsites that Al-Queda also came out and stated that part of Iraq should go to their leader Osama Bin Laden. Now, why would Bin Laden want part of Iraq? The last I heard Bin Laden is a Saudi and not an Iraqi. I guess he's tired of hiding in a cave and needed a homeland since the Saudi government kicked him out and stripped him of his Saudi citizenship.
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oinrocinu



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 76
Location: Barcelona, Spain

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But have they attacaked France or Russia? In all case, Al Qaeda is a terrorist group and they have terrorist ideas... what is more, terrifying ideas. But what is the way to avoid this murders? To invade Iraq? Why?? They are in Iraq, in Morocco, in Afganistan, even here, in Spain... they are almost everywhere, organized. We should think what to do seriously but not ... to make a fuss an dinvade a country.

The problem is that this terrorism has started to affect us. If Bin Laden had attacked, I don't know, Iran, it would have nothing to do with us ("western culture"). Just have a look at Israel and Palestine, this is their own problem, isn't it? There are people prepared to kill themseves becuase of religion!

I think that the religious fanaticisms are one of the blots of this society.

And one more thing: I'm sorry for the loads of mistakes I make writing (and speaking) in English Smile.

L.
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Excalibur



Joined: 19 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oinrocinu wrote:
lapdog is because Aznar has been acting as a lapdog, , working with Bush to construct a better world, appearing in Azores' picture, dealing with crucial things for de world. Puaj...

-The change of Government has had many reasons. One of them was the attack, but have you heard something about loads of lies, the sinking of the oil tanker "Prestige" and the oil slick, the strikes made against the new education law, the imposition of the religion (i.e. catholic) clases at school, the general strike of 2002, the problems with the water plan, the new immigration law, the manipulation of the media.... and much more problems.L.

I just read very carefully and I should tell that all posts are interesting.i was out of the Forum for a couple of weeks so I was not able to give my opinion.
I was born in Spain although I am currently living in Valencia I had lived in Madrid during my childhood,so I was very sad at the news of the terrorist's attack.Many relatives and friends are living there, fortunatelly nobody was injured in the tragedy.But we have to think that our brothers and sisters are being killed there - all countries which are considered democratic should think our brothers were died for our liverty - by ETA or a branch of Al qaida, it doesnt matter, that is not the question. Yesterday, I was walking around the streets of Valencia. In it has been celebrated the Fallas after three days stopped, I was able to see many people who were wearing a T-shrit with this slogan "201 of my brothers and sister was killed in 11 March 2004"We have to realize that now has been in Madrid but nobody is safe to these terrorists groups.

Maybe,that is true, Aznar has been the lapdog of President Bush because like 90 % of spaniards I was strongly disagreed going to war against Iraq. That is enough reason to not give the vote because he gave an unconditional support to Bush aministration. Oinrocinu don't look for anymore reasons to PP has lost the elections. Prestige was a tragedy which the opposite political party used againts Aznar but included the decision to tug the ship toward the sea was certain according with the justice. Religions classes, maybe, from your point of view has been a enough reason to expel from the goverments, sincerely I dont think so. Water plan, interesting matter, because I dont think people thought like you. PSOE is not more popular here in Valencia, it the only political party which are demanded in Europe aghaint this water plan. They has avoid talking about that during the election campaig.

Manipulation of the media, all goverements has always tried to control public opinions. Maybe, Spanish National Television has been controlled by PP. But fortunatelly, Spain is a democratic country where there are other differents media opinion which can be expressed. Because in Catalu�a like Valencia, there are television channel which can be expressed an independent opinions. In contract, TV3 is being financed by Catalu�a goverments, the person who manages this channel has been choiced by Catalu�a goverments. That is true or not. Fortunatelly, Cataluna like Spain there are others media companies.

Spaniards were against to the war and in spite of that Aznar supported the war againts Iraq. The reasons which the Bush administration gave all the world has been uncertain.

One importat thing which maybe people in this forum could be not knowed., What is your opinion about the leader of the political party ERC who met whit the Leader of ETA and after that EtA announced that anybomb and terrorist attack wont be carried out in territory of Cataluna ?
Mr. Carod Rovira is currently the leader of the ERC, a political party which goals are to create independece Cataluna.
In my opinion that objetive is legitimy but it should be defended through the democratic. And I have to say that is being that..
New president of the Spain promised during election campaign pull out our troops from Iraq and he will carry out this promise. I hope that decision wont be adopted because in spite of there isnt a UN resolution was promulgated. Many countries as Germany, France has reconsidered their position. United Nations has announced that sooner than later will be In Iraq.
Righ now, there isnt any war in Iraq. It only a contry which needs supporting from democratics contries to reconstrucction, to do a stable country in that region.Spain are going to be alone agin, out of the importants international responsabilities. If Spain pull out the troops of Iraq the International alliance against the terrorism will be damaged it
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