Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

liebe · Joined: 16 May 2003 Posts: 117

Hello, I'd like to do a little survey about modern-day anti semetism and Neo Nazism. I hope you can help me by answering the following questions(if you're German-it's better. I'm specially interested about hearing from Germans):

1. What is your nationality?

2. What do you know about the Holocaust?

3. What is your honest opinion about Jews?

4. Do you believe that there are any races/nationalities/people that are superior to others?

5. Do you think a country can have a right for a genocide (the act of killing a large group of people from the same nationality), under certain circumstences?

6. What were you taught in school about Hitler?

7. What is your honest opinion of Hitler and the nazi ideology?

8. What do most people in your country (as far as you know) think of Hitler? Of the Jews?

9. The true definition of Judaism is a religion; however, in Europe it used to be viewed as a nationality, even a race. How do you yourself view it? Majority of people in your country?

10. If you were a non-Jewich German living in Germany during the era of the Third Reich, do you think you'd have become a National Socialist? If so, please explain why.

11. how do you think Germany (as well as other members of the axis) should deal with the actions carried out by the nazis during the third reich? Do you think it should pay reperations? Strongly support Israel? Strongly teach children against racism? do nothing? anything else?

12. do you have any other comments about this subject?

That's all!! you're honest opinion is appreciated. If you're wonder about mine, then I hate racism in general, Hitler and the Nazis in particular. I don't think that any person should ever be killed or judged upon his/her nationality or religion. I don't see how a person can be judged that way

Sharon · Joined: 21 Aug 2003 Posts: 14 Location: Korea

Hi Liebi, Just thought I'd post this here, because the leader of teh below group has stated that "Hitler was doing God's work by killing the jews"
He knows this because he IS the 2nd Messiah!! (according to him) actually he's really the head of a criminal organisation.....

Hi,
I hope anyone interested in this will read this with an open mind, if you or someone you know is a member of this group, please please visit www.freedomofmind.com and www.factnet.org and learn more about how these groups operate.

Cuult's name:

Providence
International Christian Association.
Global Association of Culture And Peace (GAOCAP) (GACP) http://gacpusa.org

Leaders name: Jung, Myoung-seok aka JMS aka Joshua Jung, aka Joshua Lee Jung professes to be the second Messiah.
Age 58. Nationality Korean.
This cult is based in Korea and is seeking to grow internationally. It has members in Korea, Japan, Hong Kong, The Philipines, Singapore, Canada, USA, Germany, Italy, Australia, New Zealand that I know of and

From what I have witnessed myself and after speaking to members and former members I believe this group is a destructive mind controlling cult. The group uses most if not all of the mind control methods of the BITE model. And I also believe the group satisfies all the criteria of the "HOW TO DETERMINE IF A GROUP IS A DESTRUCTIVE CULT" article, see the links below for more information

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/articles/BITE.htm
http://www.factnet.org/rancho5.htm?FACTNet

This is a Korean website (in English) operated by a group hoping to destroy the cult: http://antijms.or.kr/~justally/frame.htm
According to the above site, the leaer was recently arrested in Hong Kong on Visa violations and the South Korean governnment is attempting to extradite him to face numerous tax and rape offences.

The cult has been in existence in one form or another since about 1980, and has undergone numerous name changed since then. Providence is the lastest name, and before that International Christian Association.

What they claim is new:
An evolution of the relationship between God and man/women.
In the old testiment the relationship between God and man was one of Master / Servent
In the new Testiment the relationship was that of Father / Son.

Providence now reveal that we have reached the next step in the evolution of our relationship with God. The relationship has now become that of equal lovers. The founder claims he is a Virgin.

The 30 lessons. A bible study course is undertaken by new recruits, 30 lessons are covered over a period of several months. Students are not ALLOWED to take the material home with them, nor are they allowed to read ahead. Towards the end of the 30 lessons, the student is asked something like, "So have you worked out who the new Messiah is???" the student then believes that they have come to the conclusion themselves that Jung Myung Seok is the new Messiah.

Cult events are very time consuming, every Sunday sermons conducted by the leader via live internet TV can last anywhere from 3- 7 hours. I have been told that around 50% of this sermon is about urging people not to leave the cult. Usually the members can't see the Messiah talking, but he can see them. When he does appear before his followers he usually wears a brilliant white suit and the members feel blessed that they have been present at his appearance.

Throughout late Spring / early Summer this year, daily morning services were held on weekdays.
Members would arrive around 4am and have a similar video session to Sundays. Followed by group praying. memebers encouraged to talk to themselves as they pray. I witnessed people crying, and uttering complete gibberish as they "prayed"

I attended an all night "festival" Singing and dancing in the evening. 11pm - 1am a sermon by the founders brother. 1:30 - 4:30am Performances by very talented musicians. Lots of dance performances by beautiful women followed.
Group praying was next, people talking out loud, crying speaking gibberish.

Members are not allowed to "date" either inside or outside the group. Once a member has completed the 3 lessons AND brought 3 new people into they group, they are ALLOWED to get married.

For members "allowed" to marry, an event is held where members can ask potential mates a few basic questions. Once they find a suitable partner, they appear before the leader who either grants or refuses their request to marry, based on what God tells him. I know one girl who met her husband on 4 brief occassions before marrying him. A group wedding is held for the lucky couples, no family members welcome.

I know of members who I believe are kept financially dependent on the group. Some hold no jobs, others part time jobs.

Various extracts from the leaeder's sermons: In no particular order.

Lady Di (Princess Diana) was killed by God because she slept with a Muslim.
JFK was killed by God, because he offended God...(I forget the exact reason given)
The Sars virus was released by God to show people to live cleaner lives.
Adolf Hitler was doing Gods will by killing the jews. Revenge for Jesus' death on the cross.

God's idea of a perfect women is a tall women with long hair.

What good is a tall and beautiful women if she doesn't have any money??

Please recruit more handsome men

a 20 minute talk on the evils of eyebrow plucking.

I used to heal people but I don't do it anymore because God told me to stop. (He speaks to God daily)

Sometimes our members stray from the true path. Sometimes I send people to watch them, when I discover that some members hadn't staryed from the True path after all, it pleases me greatly.

Thankyou for reading.
_________________
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy

HENNING · Joined: 18 Sep 2003 Posts: 28

I am German an I think I am a punk. I think Hitler was a stupid,crazy and a big ashole. Nobody is in the right if he kills people. And the people how follow this murders are stupid and crazy,too and they have to be in a prison to think about this.
ANTIFA!!!

BakaGaijin · Joined: 26 Jul 2003 Posts: 226 Location: Houston, Texas

Ja. Wat ist... nevermind. My German really sucks. Any way. Hey sharon. How about you stop posting that HUGE crap-loaded Story? I've read that at least 7 times in at least as many threads.
_________________

I'm Kevin Tillman.
Japanese Exchange and Teaching ALT

eddyhe · Joined: 16 Oct 2003 Posts: 2

I am not German.But I would like to say something about Hitler .Frist heard this name is in histroy book.Of course ,in the book ,he is a stupid,crazy and a big ashole(just as HENNING says).But you must admit Hitler is a "hero"(though he didn't do the right thing) There are few people can do thesame thing like he!!

Racheal17 · Joined: 17 Oct 2003 Posts: 8

I think it is--for the most part--generally known that what Hitler did was awful. I disagree that hitler was a hero. A hero is someone who does something exraordinary for the good of others. What Hitler did made him into a coward. It does not take bravery or courage to maciously murder a whole bunch of people. On the contrary, it takes selfishness and ignorance. History tells us that Germany was going through a great difficulty after the first world war and needed a leader to help them out of this difficulty. Hitler took advantage of this and destroyed the lives of so many jewish generations. Among the numerous he killed could have been soneone who would have found the cure for aids, or other incurable diseases.

liebe · Joined: 16 May 2003 Posts: 117

I agree with Rachel17. I don't see what's so HEROIC about taking an advantage of a nation suffering an economical disaster and blaming all their problems on the largest minority [Jews] living in that country. I find people who risk their lives for other people or express their ideas even when they know they'll be punished for them to be much more heroic. I admire Germans (and non-Germans) who risked their lives to save Jews. They had the courage and the decency to that what few have done.

Anxious Heart · Joined: 02 Dec 2003 Posts: 91

Okay, since no other German member of this forum seems to be willing to write something here, I will try to do so, although I already "talked" about that topic with liebe.

liebe · Joined: 16 May 2003 Posts: 117

Are Germans really being judged so often for the Third Reich? I didn't know it was that bad. But I think, if you look closely, everyone is being judged because of his/her country or nationality. If an American would happen to come to Europe, I am quite certain people would start judging him for the war in Iraq. I remember that when I came to the U.S, people often judged me because of the conflict with the Palestinians--even though I wasn't even born in Israel! (my family immigrated from Russia to Israel when I was 4.5) Muslims often stared at me with hatred, when they saw me in the hallways. Europeans would often come up to me and give me "advices", so to speak, about what Israel should and should not be doing. It hurt me a lot during the first few months, but then I got used to that. I've tried to see it the way they see it--they see this conflict on television, they can't even locate Israel on the world map, their opinion is based solely on what they see there. And then they see me--the only person with a real connection to Israel they've ever seen--they just let all their emotions out on me. I guess it's the same with Germany. People study about the Concentration Camps since childhood, they've never even met a German person, they think that all Germans are like this.
I have a Russian friend, who, when visiting Poland, was treated quite badly because of the years of occupation of Poland by Russia.
So Anxious Heart, comfort yourself with the knowledge that we all are hated by someone and we all are being judged by our nationalities...

That's the reason I try to never judge or hate others based on their nationalities......

jazzie · Joined: 13 Feb 2004 Posts: 42

Since nobody commented on points ten and eleven I'll try:

asterix · Joined: 26 Jan 2003 Posts: 1654

1. What is your nationality?

English

2. What do you know about the Holocaust?
Everything

3. What is your honest opinion about Jews?
They are people. The ultra orthodox ones are really weird to me because I don't know what all that bobbing of the head and old fashioned hats and little leather boxes on their foreheads are all about.

4. Do you believe that there are any races/nationalities/people that are superior to others?

No

5. Do you think a country can have a right for a genocide (the act of killing a large group of people from the same nationality), under certain circumstences?

Any war kills large groups of people from the same nationality. Sometimes you have to defend yourself.

6. What were you taught in school about Hitler?
He was the antichrist.

7. What is your honest opinion of Hitler and the nazi ideology?
Some of the blame for Hitler can be laid squarely at the door of the French and the British, whose desire for revenge on the Germans overrode their good judgement after the first world war had ended. France demanded huge reparations and occupied the Ruhr. Eventually the German economy collapsed, with runaway inflation and people literally starving to death.

Hitler got the economy back on track and rearmed Germany. The rearmament contravened the treaty of Versailles but nobody had the guts to do anything about it.

Now you have this great, powerful, warlike nation led by a man with a psychotic hatred of the Jews and the French.

In Nazi Germany it was politically incorrect to say anything in support of the Jews. It was also an almost certain ticket to jail or even worse, if the authorities got wind of it. Therefore, it is a bit naive of us to condemn all Germans because of Hitler. It takes an extraordinarily brave person to stand up to a ruthless, homicidal system that would snuff out your life in an instant. Unfortunately, there are very few of us that brave, and Hitler went on to ruin Germany a second time. At the end of WW2, though, it was the Americans who were the dominant force because they were the only ones with any money left. They helped the Germans rebuild into the nation they are today.
I would say that was an American success story.

8. What do most people in your country (as far as you know) think of Hitler? Of the Jews?
Some Germans in their 60's and 70's remember him fondly and still dislike Jews.
In Britain, nobody who is old enough to remember Hitler has anything but loathing for him.
The majority is OK with the Jews.

9. The true definition of Judaism is a religion; however, in Europe it used to be viewed as a nationality, even a race. How do you yourself view it? Majority of people in your country?

It's a religion embraced largely by semitic people.

10. If you were a non-Jewich German living in Germany during the era of the Third Reich, do you think you'd have become a National Socialist? If so, please explain why.

Who knows. It depends on what the benefits were.

11. how do you think Germany (as well as other members of the axis) should deal with the actions carried out by the nazis during the third reich? Do you think it should pay reperations? Strongly support Israel? Strongly teach children against racism? do nothing? anything else?

It's over. Don't forget it and don't do it again.
They already are paying reparations

12. do you have any other comments about this subject?
I admire the Israelis. They are surrounded by about 300 million people who want them dead and they have successfully defended themselves for close to 60 years now.
If Hitler had been smart, he would have promised the Jews their own country at the end of the war instead of killing them.
But he was not smart, he was a psychopath.

jazzie · Joined: 13 Feb 2004 Posts: 42

liebe · Joined: 16 May 2003 Posts: 117

Regarding point 11 (jazzie was curious to know what others think)--

There's not that much to be done about that, really. You can't return those people who were murdered in the Concentration Camps back to life, nothing can bring them back.

I think that Germany has an obligation to prevent something like the holocaust from happening in the future. Germans should be taught about the concentration camps, and I suppose the only thing they can do is promise themselves to never allow something like this to happen.

I suppose paying reparations is a right thing to do, but on the other hand... There are Germans who don't like the idea of their government's "wasting money on the Jews". This can increase anti-Semitism in Germany. Also, paying money gives many the notion that "it's ok to kill and do whatever you want, as long as you can pay for it". Soo... I just don't know. I don't see any other way to make it up to the Jews (as well as all the other victims of the Holocaust) besides paying them, but I don't like the idea of paying for the death of others either. I hate the idea that money can buy everything.

You're right, Astrix. Many people have the notion of associating murder and barbarism with the Germans (after WWII), when in reality, there is not a single nation that's better than them. People are naturally very selfish, stupid creatures, who can be easily influenced by propaganda and who would rarely move their fingers to help another human-being.
People often think that Hitler was stupid, but I disagree with that. He was a psychopath, no doubt, but he was also very clever. He knew how to rise to power, without making too much noise around the world. He knew how to create a situation, in which the Jews would become socially separated from the Germans. He knew how to brain-wash people. He was very good at killing large masses of people efficiently... He did not possess a basic common sense and logic. But he was very clever and sneaky in certain areas.

As a final note, I'd advise Jazzie as well as all other Germans (and non-Germans) not to judge Israel. The European media heavily favors the Arabic side of the conflict, yet it doesn't mean that that's the reality there. You can't judge a country unless you live there. The situation there is not what they're showing you on television.

And Astrix--thanks...

Anxious Heart · Joined: 02 Dec 2003 Posts: 91

liebe · Joined: 16 May 2003 Posts: 117

It just seems to me that many Europeans favor the Arabic side. European politicians often criticize Israel, without criticizing the Palestinians. I've asked myself, how a person that has never been in Israel could be so sure that Israel is the "bad guy" in the story, and the only logical answer that came into my mind was the media. Am I wrong? If so, I'm sorry. I believe that Europe doesn't want to have the same problems as Israel, and I can understand why...