Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[Excalibur]

I would like to know your opinions about this issue.

As you know it was a new winner from the left party which won the presidencial election in Spain. Among others he promised to take spanish troops out from Iraq. There was a great demostration againts war in Spain like others European coutries. Futhermore, according with public polls 90 % spaniards did't support the war.

Seconly, recently in France there was a regional or local election which has also won the left parties. But the current president of France is from conservative party. Question mark?. European goverments are either from conservative party or left party.

All Europe countries are willing to send troops to Iraq, at least some of them are reconsidering their positions. We will see at the end Spanish troops are not pulled out of Iraq because not only Europe has an political strategic in common but also because the situation there is right now totally differents.

it will be a big mistake to pull out spanish troops because it has already ended the war.

In my opinion, in spite of the differents among Europe countries, we are trying to get a long term strategic policies in critical International issues. Like Middle East and terrorism It is not easy to cath up an agreement among many countries.

On the contrary, Democratic party in Usa has a different strategic from Conservative party in term of Middle East, Iraq, Afghanistan.

My question is If Bush lose the new election and win kerry there will be change in Usa political abroad in these critical issues. We had seen that in the past.

What do you think about it???
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I could dance with you till the cows come home...On second thought, I'd rather dance with the cows when you came home

[LucentShade]

I think that Kerry may deal with the Middle East and the world in a different way, but I don't think that he will completely reverse the USA's current actions. If we don't create a stable Iraq, our international standing will be hurt even more*, because we will be known as a country that invaded another and then left it in chaos.



*If this were possible, that is.

[Diana]

It is important for America to rebuild Iraq into a stable democracy because it's how they can win the war on terrorism. All terrorists feed off the misery of other people in order to recruit them into their ranks. If a person is in misery, al-Queda will keep that person focused on his misery and brainwash the man into blaming America and the western world as the cause of his misery. This is why they oppose democracy and prefer to keep people in misery and uneducated. A democratic Iraq will improve the lives of the Iraqis and will make it even harder for terrorists to recruit others into their organizations. And eventually, terrorism will be defeated in time.

[Excalibur]

[Excalibur]

[LucentShade]

[Diana]

I agree with LucentShade. The dictators keep their people in poverty while they live better lives in their luxurious palaces. The terrorists then use this poverty to brainwash people into thinking that their misery is caused by Israel and the United States (rather than their dictators). They use this tactic to recruit them into their organization. The dictators also do the same thing. Saddam told his people and the rest of the world that the US sanctions were the ones making the Iraqis suffer and starve to death when in fact it was him all along.

Now that Saddam is taken out, we now know that Saddam had built about 78 Presidential palaces - most of them were built DURING THE SANCTIONS. At the time of his capture, it was also learned that Saddam still had 4 billion dollars in his savings account.

[Excalibur]

Diana I miss your comments.
I wish hearing from you soon.
Where are you??. That forum is less funny without you.

The Iraq's situation is getting worse. I would like to see soon as UN take control over the country . Without supporting of the Army from USA and other importants countries in Europe UN wont be able to do a better job therebut at least the huge World can see that not only economics reasons and wished of Bush administration to take out SHussein were motivationes to attack and invade Iraq.
_________________
I could dance with you till the cows come home...On second thought, I'd rather dance with the cows when you came home

[Diana]

Hi Excaliber,

In my opinion, I think Osama Bin Laden is getting very desperate. He has already resorted to trying to make a peace treaty with Europe. I guess Bin Laden now sees he's on the losing end of the stick.

As for the situation in Iraq, the American soldiers are getting restless as they wait out this peace treaty between Falluja and Najif. Sadr is now trying to make a deal with the Iraqi Governing Council. I guess it's because he now sees he's on the losing end of the stick. In the meantime while they're waiting for orders, the American soldiers have been blasting loud rock and roll music at Falluja such as "Hell's Bells." They're also using insulting words in Arabic such as "You shoot like a goat herder" to pass their time.

[Excalibur]

[Diana]

[Excalibur]

I didn't know that.
United Nation is not a panacea to resolve all problems of the world but at least has a moral authority to call for through UN resolution.
People will say the Sadan Hussein had been not enforced many United Nation Resolutions. trust me is not perfect but at least is something.
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I could dance with you till the cows come home...On second thought, I'd rather dance with the cows when you came home

[Diana]

The United Nations is a joke! And it isn't as moral as you believe it to be.
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� April 22, 2004 | 9:47 PM ET

"UNSCAM" AND THE PROBLEM WITH MULTILATERALISM

We've heard a lot about the need for a more multilateral approach in Iraq, and how we should get the United Nations involved in Iraq's postwar reconstruction.

Trouble is, the more we learn about the U.N.'s role -- and the roles of other non-coalition countries -- in the pre-war Iraqi situation, the less credible such an approach seems. Because it seems that the United Nations, and some other critics of the war, were in bed with Saddam as the proceeds of the U.N.-administered "oil for food" program were diverted and stolen, something that's now being revealed in a scandal that many people are calling "UNScam."

Here's a clear explanation:

It worked like this: Iraq would export under-priced oil, import over-priced goods, and cash in the difference through friendly middle-men. This occurred in plain daylight, right under the U.N.'s nose, with the complicity of hundreds of international companies, and possibly, the knowledge of many governments that had seats on the U.N. Security Council.
Beyond the kickbacks, Saddam was able to smuggle an estimated $5.7 billion worth of oil and fuel out of the country in total violation of the sanctions. Hundreds of trucks would enter Iraq from Turkey filled with goods bought under Oil-for-Food - then drive off again with fuel destined for sale on the black market. Other smuggling routes included a pipeline through Syria, and ships sailing Iranian territorial waters.
This sanctions-busting trade provided no benefit to Iraq's civilian population. In fact, it created drastic fuel shortages inside Iraq. And again, it could not have occurred without the knowledge, and participation, of Iraq's neighbors.

And it looks as if the U.N. wasn't simply negligent -- it appears that many U.N. officials were involved:

April 20 � At least three senior United Nations officials are suspected of taking multimillion-dollar bribes from the Saddam Hussein regime, U.S. and European intelligence sources tell ABCNEWS. . . .
Most prominent among those accused in the scandal is Benon Sevan, the Cyprus-born U.N. undersecretary general who ran the program for six years.
In an interview with ABCNEWS last year, Sevan denied any wrongdoing.
"Well, I can tell you there have been no allegations about me," he said. "Maybe you can try to dig it out." And in a Feb. 10 statement, Sevan challenged those making the allegations to "come forward and provide the necessary documentary evidence" and present it to U.N. investigators.
But documents have surfaced in Baghdad, in the files of the former Iraqi Oil Ministry, allegedly linking Sevan to a pay-off scheme in which some 270 prominent foreign officials received the right to trade in Iraqi oil at cut-rate prices.

This also raises some questions about the pre-war diplomatic maneuvers, as Mort Zuckerman points out:

If you wondered why the French were so hostile to America's approach to Iraq and even opposed to ending the sanctions after the 1991 Gulf War, here's one possible explanation: French oil traders got 165 million barrels of Iraqi crude at cut-rate prices. The CEO of one French company, SOCO International, got vouchers for 36 million barrels of Iraqi oil. Was it just a coincidence that the man is a close political and financial supporter of President Jacques Chirac? Or that a former minister of the interior, Charles Pasqua, allegedly received 12 million barrels from Baghdad? Or that a former French ambassador to the U.N., Jean-Bernard Merimee, received an allocation of 11 million barrels? Perhaps it was just happenstance, too, that a French bank with close ties to then French President Fran�ois Mitterrand and one of the bank's big shareholders who is close to Saddam became the main conduit for the bulk of the $67 billion in proceeds from the oil-for-food program. All told, 42 French companies and individuals got a piece of this lucrative trade. No matter how cynical you may be, it's sometimes just plain hard to keep up with the French.
But they're not alone. Russians received more than 2.5 billion barrels of the cut-rate crude. Some 1.4 billion barrels went to the Russian state. Not to be left out of the feeding frenzy, even the U.N. got in on the action. It received administrative fees of about $2 billion for the program, which may be fair, but the senior U.N. official in charge of the program, Benon Sevan, is reported to have received 11.5 million barrels himself. Cotecna, a Swiss-based firm hired by the U.N. to monitor the import of the food and medicine to Iraq, hired Kojo Annan, the son of U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan, as a consultant during the period when the company was assembling and submitting bids for the oil-for-food program.

There were Congressional hearings on this scandal this week, and the U.N. Security Council is investigating, though given the apparent complicity of Security Council members Russia and France in the scandal, it's hard to be too optimistic about that investigation.

The consequences for the United Nations are likely to be drastic. If it can't be trusted to run programs like this without its people being in on dictators' payrolls, how can it be taken seriously as an international organization that promotes peace and democracy?

That has United Nations fans like Roger Simon and Austin Bay worried. And they should be.

The world would be better off with an international organization that was trustworthy, competent, and serious about promoting freedom and human rights. Will the United Nations ever fit that description? It won't have a chance until this mess has been cleaned up.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3395977/

[SN]

You guys are discussing the middle east case,i know.
If Mr.Kerry win, im wondering, what will happen in Asia,regarding North Korea. Thats the thing i m concernd most.
I couldn't agree with Mr.Clinton's soft policy to appease Pyongyang.
I think Mr.Bush's strong policy better. I dont wana Mr.Kerry to inherit Mr.Clinton's line,if he win.

[Devotion]

Bush is a sadistic maniac, a fake puritan, a greed, an immoral and a thief...........

The US had sold to Iraq over 70% of its chemical powder.

The US bought Iraqi oil at 40% from 1995 to 2001.

The US had trained and armed Saddam�s troops to fight Iran

The US had trained and armed Ben Laden to fight the Russians also helping him to export thousand of tones of pure heroine from his farms to doom the Russian youth prospect economy

The US............. always blaming others.......

Diana you are such a sick racist puppet and your propaganda is straight from the white house.......
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I have worked in Spain, France, and the USA. Also on the islands of Saipan, Bali and Guam, as well as in the U.A.E, Poland, the CZ Rep. and in FR Guyana.
http://www.engrish.com
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