Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[Lib]

PugachevV (et al)... firstly, I thought the ended in 1945. Franco�s dictatorship ended 30 years later, in 1975. Of course the US didn�t get involved because the bought Franco out and had access to the Mediterranean thanks to �I lick your a** and you lick mine�. Funny how history repeats itself, isn�t it?
I felt insulted by your comment on the Spanish not being reliable allies (when did that happen before?) �. maybe they simply don�t agree with the �American� way of seeing things. That is why I (cynically) asked where the Americans were during the Franco regime, but I, for one, am glad they didn�t interfere.
Spain became a democratic republic, with its problems, but a democracy, nonetheless. They owed nothing to anyone until Aznar decided that he wanted �. well, whatever he wanted (that�s another matter open to opinion). He made the mistake of going ahead with what he wanted without taking into account the desires of the ordinary Spanish man. Even after Bush and Blair stopped mentioning �weapons of mass destruction�, Aznar continued trying to convince the nation that they were there. That�s when he lost the little credibility he had left (by the way, the press in Spain is a lot freer than in US, from what I see).
As for the cynics who think it�s all about oil � well � we will run out of it some day. There�s only so much in South America, so one has to go further afield to find it. What better place than a country ruled by a dictator, where the peasants are peasants? I really think you are mistaken PugachevV, it is about oil.
I�d rather not get into the discussion of, as PugachevV says �7th century religion with it's (its???) attendant 7th century treatment of half of the population�. That is open to discussion. It may not be 7th century, but I�m sure you could find 17th century attitudes down your street, I certainly can.
An interesting topic, to say the least. Maybe we should go outside and fight it out like men, what do you say, PugachevV?

[Lib]

I don't know what happened here (maybe the late hour, or maybe the glass of wine) - I thought the ended in 1945 - should read - I thought the second world war ended in 1945 ...

[Diana]

If the US really wanted the oil, all they had to do was lift the sanctions in Iraq to get it. After all, the US was already getting oil from Iraq through the oil-for-food program. Lifting the sanctions would have been much cheaper than going through a costly war.

[Excalibur]

[pugachevV]

Sometimes, Lib, you are stuck with the results of your government's actions. If you were German you might say that Spain was not a reliable ally. Despite the fact that the Germans practically put Franco in power in Spain, he only sent a lousy division to fight the Russians and then declared Spain's "neutrality" in the second world war.
And the Americans would certainly be justified in thinking like that over this last event.
The fact that 90% of the population is against involvement in Iraq is a pretty fair indicator that the Spanish are not allies of the USA, no matter what their government might say.
It is somewhat ironic that the Spanish are the first European country to be seriously attacked by the terrorists.

[Excalibur]

[Lib]

I really don't think you can say that the Spanish are not allies of the US because they were against the invasion of Iraq. If France, or Finland or New Zealand had decided to invade Iraq, the Spanish would have had the same opinion.
Whatever you say about Franco is not representative of the Spanish people. He was a dictator, he held the nation downtrodden for years. They had no right to speak their opinion, and those who spoke out against him were either murdered, sent to Nazi extermination camps or had to go into hiding. Maybe the only sensible thing Franco did was to avoid getting involved in WWII.

[Excalibur]

[Lib]

Excalibur, I was actually replying to PugachevV about the Franco thing.
I don't think the decision to remove Spanish troops from Iraq was made so quickly. It was part of PSOE's electoral campaign. They promised to do it if they got into power.
I accept that the announcement on the same day of (or was it the day after) the elections was quite sudden - but that was just a smart political move on Zapatero's part. He did, however, give the UN over two months to act - so I don't really think it was so sudden.

[Excalibur]

to lib,
I am very respectfully whit your opinion.
_________________
I could dance with you till the cows come home...On second thought, I'd rather dance with the cows when you came home

[asterix]

Even I know that the German airforce bombed Guernica and many other places during the Spanish civil war.

[openguide]

From the point of view as a third party, in my opinion, it is a right choice.
Because Spain is not the US, and the Spanish troops would Fall into the mire, sinking deeper and deeper , can not extricating themself at last, if they keep staying there. I know that the US can't withdraw its army, for they haven't finished their job that is to create a stable Iraq, not left it in chaos.
The most important is only the Spanish public have the right to choose, and they did.
So I think it is a right desision to reduce lost, at least in Iraq.


ps : The only disadvantage,I think,is that the terrorists may use the same way to deal with this.

_________________
ANYTIME, ANYWHERE, CALL ME, AND I WILL BE THERE. ^_^

[Diana]

Many of the Spanish troops in Iraq disagree with their government's decision to pull out. I guess they saw something in Iraq that most media haven't been showing to the rest of the world.
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Tuesday April 20, 09:04 PM

Spanish soldiers prepare handover to other coalition troops

DIWANIYAH, Iraq (AFP) - Spanish soldiers have begun preparing the handover of their positions in Iraq to new coalition troops, commanders said insisting the departing troops had carried out their mission with honour, unbowed by recent attacks.

The official line from officers at the Spanish base in Diwaniyah was that they were simply carrying out orders coming from Madrid and that they were in no position to express any emotion or opinion on the matter.

But ordinary soldiers said the overwhelming majority of their comrades opposed Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero's sudden decision to bring home the 1,432-strong contingent based here and in the nearby Shiite Muslim holy city of Najaf.

A logistics unit from Spain was already in Iraq to coordinate the pullout after Defence Minister Jose Bono said Monday that the process was under way and that it would be concluded swiftly.

"The mission does not just involve picking up our gear and marching out, but also to do it in a planned and safe way and to transfer our responsibilities to our successors under the best conditions," said Lieutenant Colonel Jose Luis Puig, spokesman for the unit overseeing the pullout.

He refused to discuss any timetable for the withdrawal or to specify which countries from the US-led coalition would be taking the place of the Spaniards.

There was no sign of any convoys preparing the departure and soldiers at the base seemed at ease.

"I feel satisfied with the five months I spent here. For me it was a great professional experience and I would do it again," said Captain Jose Miguel Garces, who is scheduled to leave Iraq in one week.

Private Marco Antonio Laguna, who leaves in three days, said he was proud to have helped bring security to Iraqis as he showed a wound in his hand sustained in an attack on his patrol 12 days ago by militia loyal to wanted Shiite radical leader Moqtada Sadr.

But privately some said the "honour of the Spanish army" might have been tarnished by the sudden withdrawal, especially in the light of recent attacks by Sadr's Mehdi Army militia.

Sadr ordered his Mehdi Army militia Monday to halt attacks on Spanish soldiers now that they were pulling out.

Before the recent violence, Spanish troops were largely immune from the daily attacks targeting US soldiers.

On the streets of Diwaniyah some Iraqis also felt that Spain was caving in to "terrorism both at home and in Iraq," and that the troop pullout would lead to lawlessness and would leave them at the mercy of mobs and militias.

Some of the same sentiments were echoed on the streets of Najaf, where Sadr has been holed up for the past two weeks despite the presence of Spanish troops.

The catalyst for Spain's decision to pull out its troops was the March 11 train attacks in Madrid that killed 191 people.

Some soldiers felt they were leaving with a lot of work still to be done in helping Iraqis rebuild their country.

The Spanish contingent was involved in many community development projects in Diwaniyah funded by the government.

The biggest project was a 1.5 million euro rebuilding and modernisation for the city's maternity hospital.

The project only started in November and doctors at the hospital felt Spain was pulling out too soon.

The spokesman for the Spanish troops in Iraq, Lieutenant Guillermo Novelles, said the fate of such projects would be decided in Madrid.

Aside from the military code of honour and their desire to finish the job, some Spanish troops said they were also sad to be leaving some of the Iraqi friends they had made in Diwaniyah.

Three soldiers manning the checkpoint at the entrance of the base were laughing with an Iraqi labourer who spoke to them in broken Spanish.

"I will miss these guys very much, I have gotten used to them," he said.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040420/323/erkgb.html

[Lib]

Well, as they say (didn't this originate in the US): you can't please all the people all the time. Some of the 1,432 soldiers don't agree, and about 10% of the Spanish population doesn't agree. But I really don't think that Spain fought so hard for a democracy just to please a minority. There still are over 35,000,000 Spaniards who are all for the withdrawl of Spanish troops from Iraq. They believe that the troops should never have been there in the first place. Most of them also believe that the Americans, British and all the others should never have gone there.
Enough said.

[Diana]

And I suppose it was also wrong to interfere in Kosovo. The US also made a unilateral strike on Kosovo without UN approval just like they did in Iraq. And Kosovo was certainly no threat at all to the US and its allies.