Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[Miranda_Lml]

could anyone tell me why was the sentence "there was a man and a woman" incorrect?

[bud]

I'm a native speaker, but not an expert in grammar, so I will give you two answers:

1. A grammar book will probably say 'were' is correct because 'a man and a woman' is plural. I believe that phrase is the subject of the sentence (but I'm not sure).

2. In common usage, many people would choose 'was.' If grammar books say this is wrong, I'm not sure that I agree.

Sorry I can't be more definitive. Good luck.

[advoca]

Forgive me Bud, (and I hope Miranda is reading this) but a grammar book would not say that 'were' is correct because 'a man and a woman' is plural.

There is only one man, and one woman.

The sentence is more easily understood if it is wriiten out in full -- There was a man and there was a woman. It is shortened to -- There was a man and a woman.

This grammatically correct, and not merely common usage.

[bud]

Thanks, Advoca. That's reassuring.

Can you explain the following:

There was a man and a woman.
There was a man and two women.
There were two men and a woman.
There were two men and two women.

Obviously, in these examples the verb agrees with the first part of the clause. But then:

A man and a woman were...
A man and two women were...
Two men and a woman were...
Two men and two women were...

Obviously in these examples, the same rule does not apply. What is the difference?

Thank you.

[advoca]

It is easy to show students how to sort this out.

Simply write out the sentences in full.

There was a man and a woman. There was a man and (there was) a woman
There was a man and two women. There was a man and (there were) two women
There were two men and a woman. There were two men and (there was) a woman
There were two men and two women. There were two men and (there were) two women


There were men and (there were) women.

A man and a woman were... A man and a woman (they) were...
A man and two women were... A man and two women (they) were...
Two men and a woman were... Two men and a women (they) were...
Two men and two women were... Tow men and two women (they) were...

[bud]

No, Advoca, it doesn't seem so easy to me. Aren't you saying that sometimes you 'write out the sentences in full' (meaning treating the clause as singular), while at other times you treat such a noun clause as plural? How is a student to know when the sentence is not already written out in full? And how are they to know when to treat it as singular and when as plural?

Why couldn't a student then reason: A man was and a woman was ---> A man and a woman was...?

[susan_wu]

Dear bud,

May I give you some advices?

My Chinese teachers teache me an easy way about how to distinguish the difference when to treat it as singular or as plural. It's the rule of close. When you meet serval subjects or objects, You always select the most close one subject or object to treat it as singular or plural. This way is easy and effecitve.

Hope it helps.

[susan_wu]

oh,sorry bud,
I made a mistake. The rule of close is only used for serval objects, it's not suit for serval subjects.

[bud]

Susan, God bless you! Thanks. I think you have hit on the main issue - that of closeness. We're still not quite there, though. In order to instuct a student, we need to know what cimcumstance necessitates using the rule. Do you remember that, by any chance?

You have come closer to solving this riddle than both an Engllsh teacher and an English tutor. What do you think of that?

[susan_wu]

Dear bud,
Thanks for your encouragement.
Let me make a try. Hope you will not laugh at me.

In this sentence structure: "there + be" , if there are a series of objects after "be" , if the first one is single, generally the correct sentence is "there is/was.......". For example:

"There is a lamp, a pen, a bottle of ink and some paper on the desk."

If the first one is plural, the correct sentence is "there are/were...........". For example:
"There are 2 girls and one boy in this room."

For a series of subjects, it has a lot of rules. You shouldn't compare it with this sentence structure: "there+be" . They are different kinds of sentence structure and different in grammer.

Generally, there are some cases:

1. two or over two single nouns which are connected by "and", it will be treated as plural, for example:
"A poet and an artist are coming to speak to us about literature and painting in America today."

2. when the two nouns connected by "and" is refered to one person, the predicate should be useed as single, for example:
"The poet and writer has come."

3. Two subjects connected by "with", the predicate should be accordant with the noun or pronoun before "with", for example:
"A woman with two baby is coming to the nursery."

4. Two subjects connected by"as well as", the predicate should be accordant with the subject befor "as well as", for example:
"The girl as well as the boys has learned to drive a car."

5. Two subjects connected by"either....or, neither.... nor", the predicate should be accordant with the subject after"either....or, neither.... nor", for example:
"Either he or I am to attend the students' meeting."
"Neither the children nor the teacher knows anything about it."

6. The subject is a double of nouns which express one concept, the predicate should be used as single, for example:
"Trial and error is the source of knowledge."
"All work and no play makes Jake a dull boy."

I just make a try and hope it helps.
Best regards.

[bud]

Wow, Susan! I'm smiling at you, not laughing. That was very well done. Have you ever thought of answering questions in here? If not, maybe you should.

Best,
Bud

[bud]

This is #2, titled, "Advoca Spouts Another Vague Grammar Rule," and subtitled, "... That Only He Knows About."

(from Oct 2003)