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Bob S.
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 1767
Location: So. Cal
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 Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| element105 wrote: |
| Third,thoughout history,you can find to many saying about the relationship between past and now,an old Chinese saying is "History is a mirror which reflects the current perspective"(maybe I interpret it badly).That's why people study history,learn from history. |
In a perfect world, that would be true, and I wish it were so. But the sad fact is history, or at least history education, becomes a tool, twisted this way and spun that way, to serve the political interests of the powers that control the educational system. This is clearly what is happening in the revisionist history that is starting to take place in Japanese textbooks. There are political forces that want to inspire more nationalistic pride in the next generation. (And frankly this is also evident in your own chauvinistic defense of all things Chinese whether it be the tyrant Mao or the invasion of Tibet).
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| who flogged the dead horse first? |
Actually it was N. Korea. They are still fighting WWII and the Korean War against foreign evil imperialistic foreign powers and seems to have no interest in being a good pr peaceful neighbor. Japan was quite happy to be a de-fanged and de-clawed power with the U.S. as its bodyguard until N. Korea launched a missile over Japan air space. That event changed everything and inspired the resurgence in Japanese militarism (which in turn percolated down to the education system). Until the nuclear threat from N. Korea is eliminated, Japan won't have an incentive to turn away from its current path of re-arming itself. |
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element105
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 518
Location: Tsingtao,China
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Bob S. wrote: |
In a perfect world, that would be true, and I wish it were so. But the sad fact is history, or at least history education, becomes a tool, twisted this way and spun that way, to serve the political interests of the powers that control the educational system...
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I didn't understand what you said,I thought we were sharing one history of truth about the WWII.Do you think the massacre was not true?Do you think that the Japanese treated us kind?Do you think that we made up all the terrible things or twisted the war?So if we have shared and recognized the fact of truth about the WWII,why don't we take it as a lesson,a mirror?As for tibet,you can consider me chauvinistic,but you cant deny that even many foreign maps printed hundreds years ago indicate that tibet is part of China,but recently,because of some kind of twisted reasons you said,you deny the truth.
| Bob S. wrote: |
Actually it was N. Korea. They are still fighting WWII and the Korean War against foreign evil imperialistic foreign powers and seems to have no interest in being a good pr peaceful neighbor...
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Come on!China didn't condemn Japan government for dead horse before their former prime minister worshipped at yasukuni shrine in 80s' last century,S.Korea neither.yasukuni trip was a bad start.
N.Korea has claimed possession of nuclear weapons,Iran speeds up nuclear investigation,why?For self-defense only in my opinion.Countries don't have a-bombs like Iraq,easily invaded by USA without any legal document,I don't say its the sticking point,but it must be the last straw pushed every 'indocile' country to possess nuclear weapons.I dont think Kim II will attack Japan first with a-bombs unless he want to commit suicide,and I dont think they have the ability to send missiles thousands miles to America meanwhile USA yells nuclear threat from NK everyday without reflecting of herself that she actually has possessed most nuclear weapons with which the earth could be destroyed many times,and the numerous nuclear weapeons are aiming at countries that she calls evil.Maybe this is the very reason told people that nuclear is truth. |
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jjc7283
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:40 am Post subject: |
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i know why the chinese protested, but i dont know why they had to destroy japanese restaurants and throw things at the embassy. you cant support that can you?
where is your anger/hate coming from? no one killed you raped you or anything did they? most japanese think this problem is solved. if it isnt then have your government do something about it. there is an obvious misunderstanding. why has your government allowed this to go on for so long? why not put more pressure on japan. all they are doing is telling them to apologize and have koizumi stop going to yasukuni. it is apparent that japan doesnt know how many people like you are in china, and the chinese governemnt should let them know, and place more pressure on them until you are satisfied.
japan doesnt want to go to war with china, what would be that point? there is nothing to gain. and you seemed to have forgotten that they cant go to war. yes there may be some japanese who say they want to but, im sure there are chinese who dont care whether koizumi goes to yasukuni or not. |
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pugachevV
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2295
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:00 am Post subject: |
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You should also remember, while you are making warlike noises regarding Japan, that they very conclusively defeated the Chinese army during your last confrontation..
Perhaps it's all about face, after all! |
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element105
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 518
Location: Tsingtao,China
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Jesus,jjc7283,you never read earlier posts before you posted,did you?If you took several minutes checking the earlier,you would have found many of your questions were answered times.
Besides,do you know how many japanese restaurants were open in China and how many of them were exactly destroyed?
Hate comes from anger,dont you know where anger comes from?Some guys brutally killed your parents,now their sons honor their glory of killing your parents every year,do you feel angry?and if you do,their sons complain that you dont respect them and their custom.that's the case.If my government did something to the crowd during the protest,I bet you must at here call for us a free protest,now you complain government shouldn't let them go,funny,hah.You ask about why not put more pressure on japanese,well,so far the pressure we put has caused some japanese politicians rantting of war,put more pressure???
And should I repeat again that being Chinese,I pretty much care whether koizumi goes to yasukuni or not,remember it,I dont want to repeat it next time.
pugachevV,you should know no one won in that war,neither allies nor axes,people simply suffered.Who were seemingly won,that's clear.If it's about face,it must be a huge face for countless victims. |
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Jekzhou
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 51
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:57 am Post subject: |
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OMG!!!!!! I read the first few post and I get a head-ache already!!
I just want to say a few things regarding the situation here.
1. I think the problem is at the government. They decide everything
Whether to attack a country or not. WE citizens just live our lifes. SO
CHILL OUT DUDE!!
2. Is it just me or is this discussion about honour?? Are we really a bunch
of ignorant animals that follow their instinct instead of using our brains?
WOW! You attacked me and defeated me...Next thing I want is revenge!
So I attack you! Well go ahead I would say...Go start a war with Japan
Heil Hitler Reign nr.2. Many innocent citizens will get killed again just for
the sake of some selfish people. The history book is made to learn
about mistakes and to PREVENT them for happening again. Don't get
brainwashed about it! World Wide War 2 started because Hitler couldn't
take Germany defeat in the first World Wide War.
3. What's done is done. If Japan want to appologies for their crime let
them. I'm sure they want to. (I think) people can makes mistakes.
They are not perfect. They are sometimes selfish etc. We wouldn't be
much better than them if we find our solution to attack them. Is it not
enough for the Japanese people that they know their crimes already?
4. It's important to remember those who died for that war. Don't make
Hatred feelings or else you end up being alone 
GET OVER WITH!! Live a beautiful life and stop worrying about this I
would say  (get along with each other...I know you want 2  ) |
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Jekzhou
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 51
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:36 am Post subject: |
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I agree with you my friend. But the World Wide War 2 has come to an end and Japan lost. But if the government is not willing to apologies. The citizens will have the blame I think. It's true that Japan was trying to erase their crime. It's unacceptable. But who to blame?
You see because Japanese citizens are also the victims due the actions their government made. They have a bad image.
And about the murder thingy. If some crazy mofo managed to kill 1 of my relatives and not willing to accept the consequence or apologies. The murder took off and he died his crimes pass on his next generation etc.
It's true that those crimes can't be forgotten but what do you suggest we should do?
N e way I can never understand those feelings of some1 who's been through that war. Because I never been through 1.
It's just my opinion and sorry for those lines. It was my mistake. Damn you sure have some good points WAAAA!!!! I don't want to go further with this discussion it make me depressive. Who made this thread anywayz!!
Guess your right mr. admiral |
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ljsjh
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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I want to say something after reading this topic.
The first thing I want to say is that some Japanese are kindly at the current stage and some Chinese are friendly with many common Japanese, For they are all common people who hate war and love peace. The relationship between Chinese and Japanese are becoming close through the communication between each other about business and national culture.
The most important point of view is that Japanese should appologize to Asia people,which includes China, Korean, North korean and so on for their wrong and inhuman action. The most important thing for the current Japanese government is to say sorry to their surrounding countries and not to pay respect to the war criminals in WWII continuously.
The third step they must to do is that they should regard German as their models who can face up their gloomy history and applogize to the victim in the war annually. The German, therefore, have gained the forgive from surrounding countries and have gotten the respect from people all over the world.
In the conclusion, Japanese should do the essential behavior to apologize to the victim contries and not to pay respect to the war criminals, through which people will not hate some Japanese gradually and show kindly to them. |
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jjc7283
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:41 am Post subject: |
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element i havent really read any direct answers to some of my questions.
and maybe you are the one thats not reading the post or maybe your not reading mine. japan doesnt want to go to war with china, what makes you think that?? there is nothiing to gain, if there is please tell me. i also dont think china want to go to war with japan, there is nothing to gain. and ive said this in so many of my posts, but japan CANT go to war, so there is no reason to think that they will go to war. if there is please tell me why. im sure there are many japanese restaurants in china, but whats your point? there were some restaurants that were destroyed, and who is taking responsiblity for them?? not the people who did it. from that comment you seem like you are saying that there is no problem with such protests, if something angers you then go crazy!! destroy everything that is related to the bases of your anger. is that what you think?? you seem like you love you country a lot, which is great but you have to admit that you also make mistakes. trying to defend whatever chinese do is doing the same thing koizumi maybe doing by apologizing, but still going to yasukuni.
if you want to be angry then be angry. thats not my problem, but your anger seems to directed in the wrong direction. the japanese restaurants is not your problem, japanese citizens is not your problem, the japanese government, koizumi is your problem. dont take it out on everything japanee. it isnt as bad a place that you make it sound.
I think everyone can agree that what was done in the past should not be forgotten mainly in order for it not to happen again, with that in mind is it such a good idea to remove the war crimials? removing them can also be interpurted as forgetting them. i dont think thats what any of us want. koizumi going to yasukuni could also be interpurted as of course honoring those lost in the war, but also as an reminder to the horrible things that were done during the war.
of course this is looking at koizumis actions in a good light, but considering the type of place yasukuni is im begining to think that removing the war criminals may not be such a good thing. |
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element105
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 518
Location: Tsingtao,China
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:50 am Post subject: |
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Ok,jjc7283,since you are so lasy to review the previous,first I'm clarifying it again,which actually I have said to asterix and bob and some japanese,that I totally suppurt the protest to japanese government,but not support the riot destroyed japanese restaurant.And guys who participated were arrested,they are in prison now,that's the punish of offending the law.Except them nobody took the responsibility.Suppose a Chinese restaurant destroyed in USa,who would have taken the responsibility?I'm so tired to repeat something which I've repeated times,really!
Remember,it was japanese politicians who said go to war with China first recently,not chinese politicians.It's no need you asking me about the potential war,what you need is just go to check the newspaper by yourself,besides you are in Japan where you can obtain more latest informations about that.And I've said earlier that whether Japan will go to war depends on what has its done through which we can have a general analysis:1)still honoring war criminals.2)whitewashing war history.3)sending army abroad.4)trying to amend constitution in order to legalize regular armies.5)expanding military budget gradually up to the second largest one over the world.6)ignoring requirements of neighboring countries on history issues...adds the recent war address in conclusion,I cannot find any clue telling me that they won't wage war on someone.
I am surprised that frankly you seem know little about the whole thing but still stick to say something unwised.The japanese keep the names of war ciminals in yasukuni not for protect war from happenning again but for honoring them and encouraging the youth to learning their past 'glory'.Germany don't have had Hitler honorred,but do you see anyone forgetting it?If Japanese simply want to honor war losts why do they insist on honoring class A war criminals together?As you asked me about my solutions of this issue,I told you my thought which thought from the angle of being a Chinese and I also repeated it last time,so why do you throw it away now and think in other way which seems not on behalf of view point of any victim country?
So far,you didn't say a word of japanese mistakes and unfriendly actions but prejudice against our protest of justice,Let me guess,either are you too young to understand the truth or are just roiling emotions here. |
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Bob S.
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 1767
Location: So. Cal
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr.Admiral wrote: |
| I can't see any point in talking about Tibet than trying to start a quarrel. We talked about it, so, please don't wrangle now. |
It's an issue that proves my point (not that I'm happy with it though, as it is a cynical view based on long experience). Historical facts get emphasized or ignored depending on the political biases of those that control the education system. It happens in China, it happens in the U.S., and is happening in Japan. 
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| It doesn't fit, however, concerning north Korea: The one who starts the all was Bush. If you consider again, if US didn't want to play the world-boss, how would Korea ever think to tell Bush that America should be careful to attack him? |
Not quite. G.W. Bush was not president when N. Korea launched the missile over Japan. That was in 1998 when Clinton was president. Clinton and the rest of the world was eager at the time to make peace with N. Korea. Everyone was hoping N. Korea would follow the wise path of China towards market reforms and a little more openess. Sure, the tyrant Kim has much to worry about NOW, but how did we get to this point? He had a chance to work for peace then but instead brought us down this strange and dangerous path. Bush now has no reason to trust him and has no power to do anything about it. Seriously, China should hire some Russian spetznaz troops to replace Kim Jong Il with someone more reasonable and cooperative to China's bigger interests. Let Kim "retire" to a little mental hospital somewhere in a small western China town. The Japanese would collectively bow down and kiss your butts in gratitude if you did that! |
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element105
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 518
Location: Tsingtao,China
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Bob S. wrote: |
| Seriously, China should hire some Russian spetznaz troops to replace Kim Jong Il with someone more reasonable and cooperative to China's bigger interests. |
Seriously,I don't quite understand it.
1)Why should we hire russian spetsnaz?
2)Why should we replace Kim2 with someone else,the action is illegal because NK is a sovereignty country.YOu know we are not as arbitrary as the USA,they can invade Iraq without permission but we can't.
3)Anybody is scared of nuclear attack,so are we.We dont want to risk to do something illegal in fact.
4)I dont like Kim 2 but I don't think we or you or someone not Korean have proper right to interfere this.The right belongs to the people in Korea.The same reason therefore I didnt support invasion to Iraq.
Some of the historical facts are certainly recognized like Nazi was evil or axis was evil,etc.If we don't have had something done for certain,we don't know how to judge right and wrong.What japan did in ww2 was wrong,the war criminals were evil so that they don't deserve honor but spit. |
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Bob S.
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 1767
Location: So. Cal
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| element105 wrote: |
| 1)Why should we hire russian spetsnaz? |
A) Spetznaz are some of the best Special Forces soldiers in the world. They can do the job.
B) Two words: Plausible Deniability. If they do fail (not likely) and are captured, China can deny involvement because, hey, Spetznaz are not Chinese military. Russians can deny them because the soldiers became rouge mercenaries. Kim 2 won't know who to be angry at.
C) For the past 50+ years, whenever China needs something important, it could trust to get it from Russia (their nuclear bomb program and their space program come to mind). You have good relations and good connections that can be very useful when you need it.
| Quote: |
| 2)Why should we replace Kim2 with someone else,the action is illegal because NK is a sovereignty country.YOu know we are not as arbitrary as the USA,they can invade Iraq without permission but we can't. |
Oh bull crap. You can just say that 1000 years ago or 3000 years ago Korea was part of some ancient Chinese kingdom or Ming dynasty or whatever. And that gives you the right to do whatever you want there, because it is an internal matter. Afterall, isn't that China's justification to sending troops to crush and subjugate formerally independent Tibet? Use your powers for good!
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| 3)Anybody is scared of nuclear attack,so are we.We dont want to risk to do something illegal in fact. |
See 1B above. N. Korea wouldn't dare retaliate against you. Face it, they're your bi-atch. They wouldn't even exist without the continued support and protection of China (and to a slightly lesser extent Russia). China is N. Korea's god, and it's time they learned to fear and respect god.
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| 4)I dont like Kim 2 but I don't think we or you or someone not Korean have proper right to interfere this.The right belongs to the people in Korea.The same reason therefore I didnt support invasion to Iraq. |
In an optimal situation that is true, but unfortunately in this situation the people of Korea (N or S) have no say in the matter. N. Korea is ruled by a cult-of-personality dictatorship. The only way this situation will change is when some N. Korean army officer decides he is more loyal to the suffering starving Korean people than to Kim 2 and puts a bullet in his ear. A coup like that would destabilize the country. The next thing you know, refugees start flooding into China, the S. Korean army joins the N. Korean army to restore order and reunite the country, and with the S. Korean army comes the U.S. army to provide support. And you end up with a division of the U.S. 8th army camped just south of the Yalu River. Now that wouldn't bother me none, but it might make China a bit uncomfortable.
If not that scenario, then the status quo that leads to N. Korea eventually testing one of their atomic bombs. Japan gets scared and decides to build their own. Not a good thing, but among all the problems in the world, a nuclear armed Japan is not high on MY list of things to worry about. But I imagine neither of these options sounds very appetizing for you, so I wanted to suggest a third option that, while seemingly unpalatable, at least has an outcome you could better stomach.
| Quote: |
| Some of the historical facts are certainly recognized like Nazi was evil or axis was evil,etc.If we don't have had something done for certain,we don't know how to judge right and wrong.What japan did in ww2 was wrong,the war criminals were evil so that they don't deserve honor but spit. |
On that we agree. |
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element105
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 518
Location: Tsingtao,China
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Bob S. wrote: |
A) Spetznaz are some of the best Special Forces soldiers in the world. They can do the job.
B) Two words: Plausible Deniability. If they do fail (not likely) and are captured, China can deny involvement because, hey, Spetznaz are not Chinese military. Russians can deny them because the soldiers became rouge mercenaries. Kim 2 won't know who to be angry at.
C) For the past 50+ years, whenever China needs something important, it could trust to get it from Russia (their nuclear bomb program and their space program come to mind). You have good relations and good connections that can be very useful when you need it.
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WOW!I really appreciate your amazing plan,imho,it's impeccable in any aspect,why not your government adopt and achieve it?It seems that your government,the government of usa,is more reasonable to do it than us,doesn't it.After all,there is a little risk for us when the whole trap is exposed.
If its my turn to do it,however,I'd rather hire some ex-service delta forces or sealmen to do it,anyway,whoever is hired NK must primarily think the USA is behind the scenes,to hire ex-deltas is just to make the action more credible.
C) is not that correct,if you know it clearly,you would find China and Russia had been enemies(due to we didnt develop communism according to their way,you do know what happenned in Prague) since 1960,until later 80s,the last years of the soviet union,the relationship between two countries got thawed.Of course the russians had therefore nothing to do with our nuclear program and space program during around thirty-year-time of opponency.
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Oh bull crap. You can just say that 1000 years ago or 3000 years ago Korea was part of some ancient Chinese kingdom or Ming dynasty or whatever. And that gives you the right to do whatever you want there, because it is an internal matter. Afterall, isn't that China's justification to sending troops to crush and subjugate formerally independent Tibet? Use your powers for good!
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What?buddy,are you going to say Korea is part of China while I don't think so at all,nor do the Korean prople.China and Korea was always brothers in the past the relationship of which was brotherhood whereas tibet has been a province of China.Consequently,it's no doubt that tibet is part of China and it has been said that dalai lama has admitted it too,don't you know what does it mean?
Besides,I wonder what do you think about American civil war?Do you support the USA to separate in two pieces?Was Lincoln doing wrong that stopped southern states from being freely independent along with forbidden southerners their right of seeking independence?
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See 1B above. N. Korea wouldn't dare retaliate against you. Face it, they're your bi-atch. They wouldn't even exist without the continued support and protection of China (and to a slightly lesser extent Russia). China is N. Korea's god, and it's time they learned to fear and respect god.
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Huh,are you being ironic?I heard some graves of Chinese soldiers who died in Korea war were destroyed,do you think this is a good thing that a little bi-atch would do to her god?We provide them foods for purpose of humanity only,with no additional conditions.
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In an optimal situation that is true, but unfortunately in this situation the people of Korea (N or S) have no say in the matter. N. Korea is ruled by a cult-of-personality dictatorship. The only way this situation will change is when some N. Korean army officer decides he is more loyal to the suffering starving Korean people than to Kim 2 and puts a bullet in his ear. A coup like that would destabilize the country. The next thing you know, refugees start flooding into China, the S. Korean army joins the N. Korean army to restore order and reunite the country, and with the S. Korean army comes the U.S. army to provide support. And you end up with a division of the U.S. 8th army camped just south of the Yalu River. Now that wouldn't bother me none, but it might make China a bit uncomfortable.
If not that scenario, then the status quo that leads to N. Korea eventually testing one of their atomic bombs. Japan gets scared and decides to build their own. Not a good thing, but among all the problems in the world, a nuclear armed Japan is not high on MY list of things to worry about. But I imagine neither of these options sounds very appetizing for you, so I wanted to suggest a third option that, while seemingly unpalatable, at least has an outcome you could better stomach.
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Suppose what you said made sense and accepted as a criterion,one country would feel free to invade another with such an excuse,soon the world turned into a mess.By then what's the function of UN,perhaps leaving only a dumb organization of rubbish?Unfortunately,USA set out a bad model over Iraq.
And if the US send army deployed by the Yalu River,definitely the war would break out,vice versa,how would they think and do if China stations armies in Cuba or just set up some missiles there as the russians ever did in cold war?Would this bother you to some level which would bother me none?
As for the second scenario,I don't know whether there would be some limitation from japanese constitution when they goes to build abomb. Further,if Japan does build abomb with an excuse of nuclear threat from NK,what reason the USA can use to stop and limit other countries(like Iran,Libya,etc.) getting it?Every country could say feeling of nuclear threat from nuclear possessed countries and then builds abomb.So the exclusive option is the USA to stop Japan when her decides to build abomb with reasons:1)the USA provides all-sided protections to Japan so that it's no need for her to evolve its own military power,just using the saved countless yens on preventing earth quake since we know japanese island often shakes.2)More than a dozen americans told me in some other place that Japan is a little slave belongs to the USA(whether you agree on it or not,that's totally true),so I think it's a good idea to let the USA stop Japan turning evil again,just as you said,it's time they learned to fear and respect god.
Oh,this is the point of what we have been discussing for these days.Delight me that at last we come to some agreements on this japanese issue. |
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Marine
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Japanese history book |
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| Aichan wrote: |
| However Chinese seem to have the past thing all the time. Then they blame Japan. |
Have Japanese goverment ever apologized for what they did that hurted the people of other countries in Asia, including China?No, they haven't.
If Japanese goverment acknowledge in pubic that what they done in world-war two was wrong and apologize for them, just as what other defeated countries do,for example,Germany, I think Chinese and people of other countries would forgive you and be more friendly to you.
But you get no try doing this thing.
_________________
Reading make a full man; conference a ready man; and writting a exact man. |
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