Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[sophion]

With regards to social & political issues...

The problem with Islam is NOT that Mohammad preached violence, sexism, and religious discrimination.

The problem with Islam is NOT that Mohammad engaged in aggression, ethnic cleansing, slavery, and child abuse.

The problem with Islam IS that it alleges that Mohammad's teachings and example is for all people for all time.

Agree or disagree? Discuss.

[sophion]

Note:

Islam is a community religion.

Islam is a political religion.

Islam is intended to govern the affairs both muslims and non-muslims alike. Muslims strive to achieve this ultimate goal.

[jonaid]

Mr. sophion could you, please, give us some pieces of information about the Islamic instructions.
If you don't have any information, then why don't you read about Islam from its own sources, such as The Holy Qur'an? Or you could visit one of the trusted websites, such as www.islam-guide.com.
And we'll talk when you do that.

Good luck to you.
_________________
Nothing in this world is to be feared of... Only understood. [marie curie]

[sophion]

Some examples of UNETHICAL TEACHINGS:

Quran 4:34

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them

Quran 4.11 "Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females..."

Quran 5:38 "As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands"


Quran 5:82 �Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans�

Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57

Mohammad said: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him."


Hadith Bukhari Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826:
The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind



The UNETHICAL PRACTICES include having sex with a 9 yr old girl and the massacre of some 700 jewish men, enslaving of their women and children and the stealing of their properties. As I said at the beginning of this thread, such practices only become a problem if made an example for all ages. Doing so makes it fall under the judgement of modern ethics.

[jonaid]

[color=darkblue]Dear sophion

First of all, As I read your recent response, I can tell that you didn�t read about Islam deeply. Also I can tell that you are copying form other websites or something like that. I think you should open your mind and read about Islam deeply and precisely. You can�t understand Islam by reading few verses, and few Quotes.
Second, those verses and quotes you have copied are general rules, Every single rule in Islam has a purpose. The purpose of the stealing punishment is to prevent stealing in the society. and they can't be applied(punishments) unless there are strict conditions and testimonies. If you have visited Saudi Arabia (which is the country that applies the Islamic rules) you will notice the level of security to the degree that no one will threat you to steal your money, or kill you because of the 20 dollars in your pocket.

Third, regarding the Quote that says whoever changes his religion kill him. This rule was promoted to prevent spies from cheating and manipulation.

Forth, as to the inheritance policy in Islam between males and females, Islam had made this segregation because men in general have many duties, such as the marriage dowry (which is given to the spouse before marriage), and family expenditure. All these are duties for the men (in Islam they "must" go to the expenses of there families. No choice!). If the women decided to help her husband in the family expenditure this is considered kind and generous from her.

Finaly, Allow me to give you a simple overview hoping that you will change your thoughts about Islam.

One of the main purposes of Islamic law is to protect the five essentials which are; life, religion, mind, honour, and possessions. And the main point is to testify that there is no deity except God, and that Muhammad (PBUH) is his messenger.

There are many things that you ignore about Islam and Islamic instructions. Islam came to complete the good manners in Human beings, for example; to help the poor, and to behave well to your parents, and to visit our neighbors, and relatives. Islam orders us to respect the eldest and please the youngest. Islam is a religion that promotes equal ness among people.

And here are some examples of Muhammad (PBUH) sayings :
{ The messenger of God (PBUH) said: " Every part of a person's body must perform a charity every day the sun comes up: to act justly between two people is a charity; to help a man with his mount, lifting him onto it or hoisting his belongings onto it is a charity; a good word is a charity; and removing a harmful thing from the road is a charity"

God's Messenger (PBUH) said: He who believes in God and the Last Day should either utter good words or better keep silent; and he who believes in God and the Last Day should treat his neighbor with kindness.

It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud, who observed:
I asked God's Messenger (PBUH) which deed was the best? He (Muhammad) replied: The Prayer at its appointed hour. I (again) asked: Then what? He replied: Kindness to the parents.

Abu Bakrah said:
We were in the company of God's Messenger (PBUH) when he observed: Should I not inform you about the most grievous of the major sins? (Muhammad) repeated it three times, and then said: Associating anyone with God, disobedience to parents, false testimony or false utterance.

'Abdullah bin 'Amr bin Al-'As said:
A person asked God's Messenger (PBUH) who among Muslims was better. Upon this (Muhammad) remarked: One from whose hand and tongue Muslims are safe.

Muhammad (PBUH) said: a person should help his brother whether he is an oppressor or an oppressed. If he is the oppressor he should prevent him from doing it, for that is his help; and if he is the oppressed he should be helped (against oppression).

The Prophet observed: Four characteristics make anyone, who possesses them, a sheer hypocrite; anyone who possesses one of them possesses a characteristic of hypocrisy till he abandons it: when he talks he lies, when he makes a covenant he acts treacherously, when he gives a promise he breaks it, and when he quarrels he deviates from the truth.

The Prophet said, "Whoever killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims, shall not smell the smell of Paradise". }



One can find thousands and thousands of similar instructions about so many different subjects in The Holy Qur'an and in The "Sunnah". This page isn't enough to include all of them.
So you can find more and more of Islamic instructions,Biography of Muhammad, etc... in this website www.al-islam.com

Good luck to you




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_________________
Nothing in this world is to be feared of... Only understood. [marie curie]

[nemeh]

The Wahhabi ulama reject reinterpretation of Quran and sunna in regard to issues clearly settled by the early jurists. By rejecting the validity of reinterpretation, Wahhabi doctrine is at odds with the Muslim reformation movement of the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries. This movement seeks to reinterpret parts of the Quran and sunna to conform with standards set by the West, most notably standards relating to gender relations, family law, and participatory democracy. However, ample scope for reinterpretation remains for Wahhabi jurists in areas not decided by the early jurists.

The 1920s marked the beginnings of modern Arabia. �Abd al-�Aziz understood the potential advantages Western technology offered; the importation of a fleet of automobiles and, later, the building of airstrips gave him the means of reaching distant parts of his territory in a fraction of the time required previously. He also ordered the creation of an extensive information network based on the wireless telegraph, through which he was able to extend his "eyes and ears" across the country. However, some of his followers were less than enthusiastic, and their leader spent much time and effort explaining personally the value of the telephone in particular. �Abd al-�Aziz finally overcame their opposition by inviting skeptics to listen to recitations from the Qur�an being read down the phone line.

Aware that the fledgling nation would be ill-equipped to function in the 20th century without industrial modernization, �Abd al-�Aziz was eager to embrace technology; however, he was no less aware that change had to be selective and gradual if it was to be accepted by the citizenry. Arabist and historian Leslie McLoughlin pointed out that "it was the insight of Ibn Sa�ud that slow change without disabling disputes was better than speed of change with great disruption."

Under Al Saud rule, governments, especially during the Wahhabi revival in the 1920s, have shown their capacity and readiness to enforce compliance with Islamic laws and interpretations of Islamic values on themselves and others. The literal interpretations of what constitutes right behavior according to the Quran and hadith have given the Wahhabis the sobriquet of "Muslim Calvinists." To the Wahhabis, for example, performance of prayer that is punctual, ritually correct, and communally performed not only is urged but publicly required of men. Consumption of wine is forbidden to the believer because wine is literally forbidden in the Quran. Under the Wahhabis, however, the ban extended to all intoxicating drinks and other stimulants, including tobacco. Modest dress is prescribed for both men and women in accordance with the Quran, but the Wahhabis specify the type of clothing that should be worn, especially by women, and forbid the wearing of silk and gold, although the latter ban has been enforced only sporadically. Music and dancing have also been forbidden by the Wahhabis at times, as have loud laughter and demonstrative weeping, particularly at funerals.

The Wahhabi emphasis on conformity makes of external appearance and behavior a visible expression of inward faith. Therefore, whether one conforms in dress, in prayer, or in a host of other activities becomes a public statement of whether one is a true Muslim. Because adherence to the true faith is demonstrable in tangible ways, the Muslim community can visibly judge the quality of a person's faith by observing that person's actions. In this sense, public opinion becomes a regulator of individual behavior. Therefore, within the Wahhabi community, which is striving to be the collective embodiment of God's laws, it is the responsibility of each Muslim to look after the behavior of his neighbor and to admonish him if he goes astray.

In the 1990s, Saudi leadership did not emphasize its identity as inheritor of the Wahhabi legacy as such, nor did the descendants of Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab, the Al ash Shaykh, continue to hold the highest posts in the religious bureaucracy. Wahhabi influence in Saudi Arabia, however, remained tangible in the physical conformity in dress, in public deportment, and in public prayer. Most significantly, the Wahhabi legacy was manifest in the social ethos that presumed government responsibility for the collective moral ordering of society, from the behavior of individuals, to institutions, to businesses, to the government itself. King Fahd ibn Abd al Aziz Al Saud repeatedly called for scholars to engage in ijtihad to deal with new situations confronting the modernizing kingdom.

[sophion]

Dear jonaid,

[RedRose]

Two months ago, I participated in an entrance exam of recruiting vice-bosses for some hospitals. in this exam, those test questions were about many aspects in many fields, such as religion, society, culture, health, etc, one of which was

who is the creator of Islim?
options: A Sakyamuni, B Mohammed, C Jesus, D HuiNeng

Obviously, I had to choose this option B. because B was the closest one. however, from what I learnt by reading Quran, I don't think Muhammed is the creator of Islim, because Muhammed was just a postman who delivered messages from Allah, how come a postman could be a creator? In my opinion, the creator of Islim is Allah.

what do you think?

[stellara]

hm you could just say that the creator of Islim are all humans who believe(d) in it. because without them it wouldn't have been a religion.

greets

ps: can you tell me, why do you write "Islim" instead of "Islam"? where's the difference?
thanks
_________________
Don't cry because it's over - smile because it happened!

MOKEY ROCKS!!!

[RedRose]

[sophion]

[RedRose]

[sophion]

[sophion]

[jonaid]

Dear Sophion:
I apologize if I offended you by saying you don't know much about Islam. I wasn't giving excuses and I can deal with it. Even if you are aware of some Islamic instructions, you still have to read whole verses if you want to learn about a specific matter. You can not read a part of a verse or a quote by the prophet and say you got the idea.

For example, you mentioned the penalty of stealing and said that its impractical to get into details. While in fact, it's very important to specify the details concerning a theft. Not everyone steals will be punished by cutting off his hand. There are certain conditions that need to be satisfied to apply the punishment. For example, let's say you parked your car in a parking lot of a mall and went home for the night. Next day, you find that someone stole it. Even if the thief got caught, his hand will not be cut off. Because the parking lot is not the usual on the common place to park your car for the night. The thief may be thrown in jail for a while, but it depends on what is the judge's verdict. This is one simple condition that needs to be satisfied for the punishment to apply. Bottom line is you need to specify the details when you are talking about stealing.

Now concerning the segregation of classes in Islam, it doesn't happen. Islam may treat women and men differently, but they are not considered of different classes. Also the non-muslims are treated well and are not considered of another class than Muslims. There in only one class in an Islamic society, and this class includes Muslim men and women and non-muslims. As I recall, Prophet Muhammad said in that matter "whoever kills a person having a treaty with Muslims, shall not smell the smell of Paradise". This includes non-muslims who live in an Islamic state. And if you have really read the Qur'an as you claim you surly must have came by these verses:

"Perhaps god will make friendship between you and those whom you hold as enemies. And god has power (over all things), and god is oft-forgiving, most merciful. * God does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on count of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, god loves those who deal with equity. * it is only as regards those who fought against you account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that god forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them then such are the wrongdoers (those who disobey god). [60: 7-9]. Note that the last verse was talking about the people of Mecca when they drove Muhammad out.

Islam has also been kind and respectful to women. And it's showed in many verses from the Qur'an and quotes from Muhammad (PBUH). And to mention one, Muhammad once said: "the best among you are those who are best to their wives". Narrated in Ibn Majah, #1978, and Al-Tirmizi, #3895.
_________________
Nothing in this world is to be feared of... Only understood. [marie curie]