Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[ecc]

Now ,the us-led war against iraq is over .without any difficulties ,the coalition forces smashed the iraqi resistance quickly and marched into baghdad ..it is no surprise that under a dozen of years of stringent restrictions imposed by the united nations and the united states ,saddam Hussein had no strength to fight with the strong coalition forces .but the swift fall of saddam hussein also indicates that he mightn't possess those alleged mass destruction weapons ,which America used to justify the war .if ameria intended to make the excuse ,then what is behind the war ?what is the true motive of America ?the oil ?at most ,oil is only part of the reasons . most likely ,america has learned from the sep.11 attack that America must reshape the muslim world with the American values to eradicate the soil where " terrorists "are produced .it is said that america has got such a master plan,and invading iraq is just the first step to reconstruct the middle east .in the case with iraq ,they disregarded the worldwide opposition and bypassed the united nations .after the war ,they continued to exclude the UN from playing an important role in rebuilding iraq .in doing so ,americans demonstrate their resolute that they won't hestitate to launch preemptive military actions to attain its goal,in spite of huge military spending , casualities of life and the opposition from its allies .next,Americans may target those nations it thinks as authoritarian and undemocratic ,such as syria and palestine .but they could have forgotten the fact that the transition from an authoritarian rule to a democratic rule cannot occur in one leap ,especially for a country fulll of illiterates and semi-illiterates .and when americans impose their values on other countries with force ,they may be plagued with the ensuing wars between civilizations .

[Nemesis]

[quote="ecc"]Now ,the us-led war against iraq is over .without any difficulties

War in Iraq over? It's just starting!

American and British forces are being attacked daily - about a dozen incidents a day with no end in sight. And Americn troop morale is bad and getting worse. And when the American GI's realize the truth they've been fighting a war to make Bush and Co. rich with oil money, they are going to be pissed!

American taxpayers are some of the dumbest people in the world.

[Diana]

Hi Eccentric,
First of all, it wasn't the sanctions that weakened Iraq at all. Iraq had the capability of fighting. The Iraqi soldiers easily surrendered because they knew in their hearts that Saddam was not worth fighting for. I'm sure many Iraqis knew about the innocent victims Saddam killed and buried in those mass graves. There is not one family in Iraq who have not lost a mother, father, brother, son, or daughter to Saddam. The Iraqi Kurds in northern Iraq were helping the Americans fight in this war. The Shi'ite muslims in southern Iraq were helping the British locate Saddam's Faydeen soldiers.

Secondly, the sanctions did not kill any Iraqis. It was Saddam himself. Now, that the US and Britian have taken Iraq, the truth have finally come out about the sanctions. Saddam has a total of 78 Presidential palaces in Iraq. A majority of these palaces are less than 10 years old. This means that a majority of these palaces were built during the sanctions. Many of these palaces has acres of marble flooring, Italian marble walls, gold fixtures including gold toilet tissue holders, and man-made gardens and waterfalls. So, now you know where the money has been going all along!

Finally, President Bush wasn't lying when he said that he was going to disarm Saddam. He believed that Saddam has those weapons of mass destruction. In fact, the entire international community believed that he had those weapons of mass destruction. If Saddam truly doesn't have those weapons, then the question we should ask ourselves is why did he continue to interfere and block UN inspections for 12 years if he really had nothing to hide? We also know that Saddam had these weapons because the US imported some of these weapons to Iraq in the 1980s while other countries such as France, Russia, and Germany continue to import these weapons. So, the question is what did he do with them or where is he hiding it? The Bush administration believed that Saddam had those illegal weapons and didn't just based it on intelligence reports from the CIA. He based on several things:

A. Records from US companies as well as other companies in Britain, Germany, France, and Russia showing that these weapons of mass destruction were imported to Iraq.
B. Saddam's use of chemical weapons on the Iranians and Iraqi Kurds in the 1980s as well as chemical weapons found in Kuwait left by Saddam in the Gulf War.
C. The variety of credible international reports that addressed the state of Iraqi weapons development (Institute for Science and International Security, Moneterey Institute of International Studies, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, Centre for Strategic and International Studies, Federation of American Scienctists, IISS, Nuclear Threat Inititative, Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, and the Wisconsin Project on Nuclear Arms Control: Iraq Watch).
D. Findings of UNSCOM and IAEA. According to UNSCOM, between 1991 and 1998, it supervised the destruction of over 40,000 filled and unfilled chemical munitions and 411 tonnes of CW agents. However, UNSCOM reported that the destruction of about 2000 unfilled munitions was uncertain, that the destruction by melting of 15,000 rockets was not verifiable, and that 500 mustard-filled shells remained unaccounted for. In addition, the unilateral destruction in 1991 by Iraq of 242 tonnes of precursors for VX production was only partly accounted for. While Iraq claimed that it never turned VX into a weapon, in 1998 degradation products of VX were found by a US laboratory on missile warhead remnants.
E. Records of UN contracts of equipment that could be used as dual purposes being imported to Iraq.

Saddam's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations did not help him at all. As I mentioned, if he truly had nothing to hide then why did he interfere and block UN inspections for 12 years. He even had UN inspectors shot at and held hostage at one time. Why go through all this trouble if he really had nothing to hide? Saddam remained defiant even in 2002.

In 2002, Saddam gave a 2000 page report to the United Nations that was only a xerox copy of his 1997 report. The UN demanded to submit a report explaining what was done to the unaccounted weapons, which he refused to do. The UN inspectors also found some weapons in Iraq in November 2002, which wasn't even included in his 2000 page report. Now, why wasn't these weapons listed on Saddam's report? A few days before Bush launched his war, Saddam submitted a 300 page report stating that he just recently destroyed the VX chemical agent. Now, why wasn't this mention in the 2000 page report that he submitted earlier to the UN. 12 years had already gone by and Saddam still hasn't changed.

Iraq is not the same as Afghanistan, Eccentric. It would take much longer for Afghanistan to become democratic and function well on their own because a vast majority of Afhgans are illiterate and uneducated. This is not true with Iraq. A vast majority of Iraqis are educated, literate, and skilled workers. There are even nuclear scientists in Iraq even to this day. There are police officers, doctors, lawyers, and electricians in Iraq. The Iraqi who rescued Jessica Lynch was a lawyer, and his wife was a doctor. The Iraqi Kurds in the northern part of Iraq have already been living in a democratic society, and they could set an example for the rest of their countrymen now that Saddam is gone. I also saw the latest poll that was taken showing that a majority of the Iraqis want the US to stay in Iraq until they get rid of the Saddam loyalists. Most of the Iraqis attacking the coalition forces are Sunni muslims from Saddam's strongholds or foreigners. I've also read in some of the articles that some of the Iraqis are taking up arms and fighting against the Arab foreigners in Iraq. Right now, the Americans are recruiting Iraqi soldiers so the American soldiers can leave.

It is possible that Bush may be reshaping the Arab World and trying to alleviate the hatred among the Arabs. Osama Bin Laden cited several things as to why he don't like America:

1. He doesn't like American troops in Saudi Arabia. Why? Because according to Bin Laden only muslims are worthy of stepping on the sacred land of Mohammed. All others are unworthy and infidels.
2. He blames the Americans for killing Iraqi children. The truth is (as we now know) is that Saddam was the one killing the Iraqi children.
3. He thinks that America is being unfair and biased by supporting Israel.
4. He blames America for supporting the Arab dictators in their countries.
5. He blames America for supporting the Indians in fighting against the muslims in Kashmir.
6. He blames America for supporting the Russians for fighting the muslim Chechens.

Of all these reasons, Bin Laden cites the first one - occupation of Saudi Arabia - as the worst atrocity committed by Americans. Does this make any sense?

[Diana]

The following article shows what Iraq is like.

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8977

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Real Iraq
By Amir Taheri
New York Post | July 18, 2003

Open up almost any American or European publication these days, and you'll be bombarded with grim news about "horrific" conditions in Iraq - and America's "poor handling" of the post-war reconstruction effort. All of which, it is claimed, is made all the more tragic - because President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair maliciously exaggerated the threat from Iraq. They may have won the war, but they're losing they peace.

Author and Middle East expert Amir Taheri spent several days on the ground in Iraq last week and found reality to be starkly different from what is so ubiquitously reported.

Here is a first-hand account of an Iraq that is rapidly moving forward in nearly every aspect of life - political, economic and cultural. And a people that, while understandably skeptical after decades of tyranny, is nonetheless hopeful - and grateful for their liberation.

---- New York Post Editors

BAGHDAD, IRAQ

'THE Iraqi Intifada!"

This is the cover story offered by Al- Watan Al-Arabi, a pro-Saddam Hussein weekly published in Paris. It finds an echo in the latest issue of America's Time magazine, which paints a bleak prospect for the newly liberated country. The daily Al Quds, another pro-Saddam paper, quotes from The Washington Post in support of its claim that "a popular war of resistance" is growing in Iraq. Some newspapers in the United States, Britain and "old Europe" go further by claiming that Iraq has become a "quagmire" or "another Vietnam." The Parisian daily Le Monde prefers the term "engrenage," which is both more chic and French.

This chorus wants us to believe that most Iraqis regret the ancien regime, and are ready to kill and die to expel their liberators.

Sorry, guys, this is not the case.

Neither the wishful thinking of part of the Arab media, long in the pay of Saddam, nor the visceral dislike of part of the Western media for George W. Bush and Tony Blair changes the facts on the ground in Iraq.

ONE fact is that a visitor to Iraq these days never finds anyone who wants Saddam back.

There are many complaints, mostly in Baghdad, about lack of security and power cuts. There is anxiety about the future at a time that middle-class unemployment is estimated at 40 percent. Iraqis also wonder why it is that the coalition does not communicate with them more effectively. That does not mean that there is popular support for violent action against the coalition.

Another fact is that the violence we have witnessed, especially against American troops, in the past six weeks is limited to less than 1 percent of the Iraqi territory, in the so-called "Sunni Triangle," which includes parts of Baghdad.

Elsewhere, the coalition presence is either accepted as a fact of life or welcomed. On the 4th of July some shops and private homes in various parts of Iraq, including the Kurdish areas and cities in the Shiite heartland, put up the star-spangled flag as a show of gratitude to the United States.

"We see our liberation as the start of a friendship with the U.S. and the U.K. that should last a thousand years," says Khalid Kishtaini, one of Iraq's leading novelists. "The U.S. and the U.K. showed that a friend in need is a friend indeed. Nothing can change that."

In the early days of the liberation, some mosque preachers tested the waters by speaking against "occupation." They soon realized that their congregations had a different idea. Today, the main theme in sermons at the mosques is about a partnership between the Iraqi people and the coalition to rebuild the war-shattered country and put it on the path of democracy.

Even the radical Shiite cleric Muqtada Sadr now says that "some good" could come out of the coalition's presence in Iraq. "The coalition must help us stabilize the situation," he says. "The healing period that we need would not be possible if we are suddenly left alone."

Yet another fact is that all 67 of Iraq's cities and 85 percent of the smaller towns now have fully functioning municipalities. Several ministries, including that of health and education, have also managed to get parts of their operations going again. The petroleum industry, too, is being revived with plans to produce up to 2.8 million barrels of crude oil a day before the year is out.

To be sure, life in Iraq today is no bed of roses. But don't forget that this is an immediate post-war situation. There is no famine - in fact, the bazaars are more replenished with food than ever since the late 1970s - while food prices, having jumped in the first weeks after liberation, are now lower than they were in the last years of Saddam's rule.

MOST hospitals are functioning again with essential medical supplies trickling in for the first time since 1999. Also, some 85 percent of primary and secondary schools and all but two of the nation's universities have reopened with a full turnout of pupils and teachers.

The difference is that there no longer are any mukahebrat (secret police) agents roaming the campuses and sitting at the back of classrooms to make sure lecturers and students do not discuss forbidden topics. Nor are the students required to start every day with a solemn oath of allegiance to the dictator.

There has been no mass exodus anywhere in Iraq. On the contrary, many Iraqis, driven out of their homes by Saddam, are returning to their towns and villages.

Their return has given the building industry, moribund in the last years of Saddam, a boost. Iraqi exiles and refugees abroad are also coming home, many from Iran and Turkey. Last month alone the Iranian Red Crescent recorded the repatriation of more than 10,000 Iraqis, mostly Kurds and Shiites.

In Iraq today there are no "displaced persons," no uprooted communities and no long lines of war victims in search of a safe haven.

FOR the first time in almost 50 years there are also no political prisoners, no executions, no torture and no limit on freedom of expression. Iraq today is the only Muslim country where all shades of opinion - from the extremist Islamists of the Hezbollah to Stalinists, and passing by liberals, socialists, Arab nationalists and moderate Islamists - have full freedom to compete in an open market of ideas. Better still, all are now represented in the newly created Governing Assembly (Majlis al-Hukum). Iraq is also the only Muslim country where more than 100 newspapers and weeklies, representing all shades of opinion, appear without a police permit and are subjected to no censorship.

Much is made of power cuts, especially in Baghdad. But this is partly due to a 30 percent seasonal increase in demand because of air-conditioning use in temperatures that reach 115 degrees. In other cities - for example, Basra - the country's second-most populous urban center, more electricity is used than at any time under Saddam Hussein.

A stroll in the open-air book markets of the Rashid Street reveals that thousands of books, blacklisted and banned under Saddam Hussein, are now available for sale. Among the banned authors were almost all of Iraq's best writers and poets, whom many young Iraqis discover for the first time. Stalls, offering video and audiotapes for sale, are appearing in Baghdad and other major cities, again giving Iraqis access to a forbidden cultural universe.

The flower stalls along the Tigris are also making a comeback.

"Business is good," says Hashem Yassin, one florist. "In the past, we sold a lot of flowers for funerals and placement on tombs. Now we sell for weddings, birthday parties and gifts of friendship."

The free-market economy is making its first inroads into Iraq's socialistic system in a number of small ways. Hundreds of hawkers are offering a variety of imported goods and making brisk business by selling soft drinks, often bottled in Iran, and biscuits and chewing gums from Turkey.

Some teahouses, in competition to attract clients, offer satellite television as an additional attraction. Every evening people pack the teahouses to watch, and zap and discuss, what they have seen in an atmosphere of freedom unknown under Saddam. It may be hard for Westerners to understand the Iraqis' exhilaration at being able to watch television of their choice.

But this is a country where, under Saddam, people could be condemned as spies and hanged for owning a satellite dish.

Another symbol of newly won freedom is the multiplication of cellular and satellite phones. Most belong to returning exiles. But their appearance is reassuring to many Iraqis. Under Saddam, their illegal possession could carry the death penalty.

The portrayal of Baghdad as an oriental version of the Far West in Hollywood Westerns misses the point. It ignores the fact that life is creeping back to normal, that weddings, always popular in summer, are being celebrated again, often with traditional tribal ostentation. The first rock concert since the war, offered by a boys' band, has already taken place, and Iraq's National Football (soccer) Squad has resumed training under a German coach.

THERE are two Iraqs today: One as portrayed by those in America and Europe who wish to use it as a means of damaging Bush and Blair, and the other as it really exists, home to 24 million people with many hopes and aspirations and, naturally, some anxiety about the future.

"After we have aired our grievances we remember the essential point: Saddam is gone," says Mohsen Saleh, a geologist in Baghdad. "A man who is cured of cancer does not complain about a common cold."

[Nemesis]

Some on you might look up the words brevity and cogent.

Many here miss the point. The US Elite Regime and the Axis of Looters, aka Britian/Israel/US attacked Irqa for the OIL. Period.

Notice now there's not a word mentioned about oil? They lied about the means and are now justifying the means because the Iraqi people are "freed."

Now we need someone to free the US from the Elite Regime.

[Diana]

I don't think the US attacked Iraq simply for oil. If the US really wanted the oil, it would have been easier to lift the sanctions and buy the oil from Saddam rather than to go through a costly war simply to get oil. Besides, the US was already purchasing oil from Saddam through the oil-for-food program. Also, the US has more than enough oil to sustain itself.

According to the US Dept. of Energy, petroleum imports reports, Arab OPEC countries supplied a cumulative average of 28% of the US's total petroleum imports since 1972. More recently, since the early 1990s, Arab OPEC countries have supplied the US between 20 and 27% of its total petroleum imports. Of this Saudi Arabia supplies the most. During 2001, Saudi Arabia's portion of the total US petroleum imports roughly 14%. The gulf region as a whole provided about 18% of the total petroleum imports to the US during that same year.

The DOE's Annual Energy Outlook for 2003 shows that petroleum is presently at 20% of the total energy production by fuel supplying approximately 15 out of the 75 trillion BTU's consumed. The current outlook has this percentage falling to roughly 17% by 2025. Petroleum imports account for roughtly 55% of total consumption in the US. This means that 11% of the total US energy demand is imported in the form of petroleum and that less than 3% is coming from Arab OPEC countries. Less tan 2% is coming from the Gulf Region. And only 1.5% is coming form Saudi Arabia. As a source of energy, the gulf region is a small source of energy for the US. Most of the US oil imports come from Canada, Mexico, and Venezula. If the US feels that they needed more oil, they can open up drilling in Alaska's habitat.

[ilya]

A future of Iraq?!
My prediction is americans won`t leave this country for a very long time because there many people who is still supporting Saddam. So, if americans leave this country there is a big opportunity returning the old regime. Saddam`s people have weapons and they are ready to change the regime back.
The partisan war will continue and increase more and more every day. All americans can do is to kill all Saddam`s suppoters or take them into prisons. But they can`t do it because they don`t know all of them and they can`t break intenationl laws (actually USA can do whatever it want).
Iraqi people will get tired of existence of americans on their land. Iraqi people don`t want americans to manage they oil companies and do on iraqi oil-money what americans want but not iraqi.
The question is not in a number of oil which USA had before the attack but in an oil-price. According the "food-oil-programe" there was 1% of abilities of Iraq to export oil. When Iraq solve his problems and arrange a production of oil and increase export, the world price of oil will go down. And you know who is the biggest oil-importer in the world. Yeah, USA. All people like small prices than big. And oil is very important in economics of USA.

[Corey]

[Diana]

[Nemesis]

[ilya]

Diana, i`m happy that Saddam`s gone. And i will be happy if all Saddams in the world will be gone. But if americans find Saddam and kill him they wouldn`t solve the problem "american soldiers will continue to die". Because people supported Saddam during his regime are fighting against americans not for Saddam but for themselves. They are fighting for their mansions, money, the respect which were taken from them by americans.
In Chechnya people were happy when russian soldiers came. But islamic terrorists began a terror against russian sodiers after that. And russian soldiers didn`t know who killed their friends, who bombed tanks. And they started to see terrorists in everybody. And civil people changed their minds and asked them to leave their country but soldiers couldn`t.
I said Iraq would be the next Chechnya. All what americans can do the best that Al-Quida won`t come there and it won`t become war muslims against cristians.

[Diana]

The Americans cannot leave yet, Ilyia. They must stay and stabilize the country. They must also find Saddam. If the Americans leave now, the country will only fall into anarchy and the Saddam loyalists will take over. Also, the fighting in Iraq is only located in the sunni-triangle area, which is Saddam's stronghold. Iraq is a huge country and a large majority of the Iraqis do accept and welocme the Americans and coalition troops. Once a government is established in Iraq, the Americans and the coalition forces can leave. They already have an Iraqi Governing Council, which has been accepted by the United Nations. Now the Governing Council must quickly find a President to lead their country, then the Americans can leave. As of now, the Americans are recruiting and training an Iraqi army so they can defend their own country. It was the Americans who rebuilt my island, Ilyia and now my people are free and living better lives. I am hoping that Iraq will be the same way.

As for Chechnya, I read that the Russians pulled out of that area in 1996. It was the Chechen terrorists who started this war between themselves and the Russians in 1999 when they attacked the apartment buidlings. If the Chechen terrorists had left the Russians alone, the Russians wouldn't be at war with them, but it was the terrorists who started it.