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dancefish
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 14
Location: China
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 Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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think you have forgetting yourself, who do you think you are?
China's unification is certain even you believe or not, you can go on, I think it is furitless...over
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KHF
Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 100
Location: ON, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Who do I think I am? I think I am a person who's actually read all the posts in the thread, said his opinions on the issue and given his reasons at the same time. In return though, all the disagreements are just some meaningless replies like the one above. |
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| stellara wrote: |
| would be very helpful if someone could explain the situation clearly, without having anyone else interfere. |
what do you mean by "interfere"? people open a thread and other people join the discussion, is that what you meant "interfere"? what is NOT "interfere" from your standpoint? like some naive question? I don't think so.
| stellara wrote: |
| ahm, i have an (probably naive) question.. what's so important about taiwan that china has been trying to assimilate taiwan since 1949 and even now doesn't give up? why don't they just let them be independent? |
yeah, definitely, it is so naive!! For your question: I wonder why your country would unify the former democratic Germany and federal Germany? why not just allow democratic Germany to be independent? why not just give up?? 
| stellara wrote: |
| i find it very exhausting.. sorry. |
Take a shower and go to bed for a relaxation. that would be helpful to you. |
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admiral
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:59 am Post subject: |
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To tell you something: I really doubt that China could win against Taiwan.
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If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I love inside you everyone else. I love the whole world because of you. I also love myself inside you" |
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stellara
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 583
Location: germany
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:17 am Post subject: |
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hey!
hmm, i see there are some misunderstandings here...
with "interfere" i just meant that it's very difficult for me to understand such a complex issue as taiwan when after every attempt of explanation there's another, parallel discussion started, whether this person is right or not, whether he could understand it or not... like i said, i didn't read the whole thread, only the first paragraphes, so maybe that changes after that. don't take me that literal
| RedRose wrote: |
yeah, definitely, it is so naive!! For your question: I wonder why your country would unify the former democratic Germany and federal Germany? why not just allow democratic Germany to be independent? why not just give up?? |
okay, don't kid me! if i'd think you really don't know the reason then okay, but the way you wrote it you seem to know. unlike me, i don't know much about the issue of taiwan and china, only that there is an issue and that taiwan wants to be independent and china wants it to be united with it. that was it. so i asked because it actually is quite an interesting issue so i wanted to talk with you about it - for that i have to know what the basics are. as for your example (assuming that you don't know), democratic germany was mainly united with the federl germany because it belonged for such a long time to germany and becaus eit was much too little to be a real independent state, as far as i know, i'm not a hiostory professor i don't know if it's the same with taiwan, that's why i asked.
| RedRose wrote: |
| Take a shower and go to bed for a relaxation. that would be helpful to you. |
 i did, thanks for the tip.. didn't help with understanding the matter, though. it's too complex...
greets
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admiral
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Since 1949, although Taiwan and China never became one, China always wanted. And some parties, fearing that the past mainland communist era could pass on their country, refused. But as long as Taiwan formally accepts to be a part of the mainland, everything was ok.
It all started with one of Taiwan's party calling for independence as a tactical strategy to get voted (I think it's 2003?). But as they called for it, they had to stay at it. And they said that if China still wants to force them, they will do war.
So HuJinTao, the recent president of China, stated three sentences:
1. Taiwan has to accept 1992, and has to stop the calling for independence
2. Everything will happen peacefully
3. Taiwan brothers will always be treated repectfully, the ware in and export will be simplified to a strong extend, which will allow companies from both coasts to work easier with each other
that's nearly all...
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admiral
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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All in all, the fact is that one country should keep together as one country independent of former quarrels, thaat is the thought of the mainland China now.
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If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I love inside you everyone else. I love the whole world because of you. I also love myself inside you" |
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KHF
Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 100
Location: ON, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| admiral wrote: |
Since 1949, although Taiwan and China never became one, China always wanted. And some parties, fearing that the past mainland communist era could pass on their country, refused. But as long as Taiwan formally accepts to be a part of the mainland, everything was ok.
It all started with one of Taiwan's party calling for independence as a tactical strategy to get voted (I think it's 2003?). But as they called for it, they had to stay at it. And they said that if China still wants to force them, they will do war.
So HuJinTao, the recent president of China, stated three sentences:
1. Taiwan has to accept 1992, and has to stop the calling for independence
2. Everything will happen peacefully
3. Taiwan brothers will always be treated repectfully, the ware in and export will be simplified to a strong extend, which will allow companies from both coasts to work easier with each other
that's nearly all... |
With no offense intended, I'd like to read the source for Hu's statements. What I know he said though, is the following four points:
1. PROC believes in the One China Principle and will not give ground on it.
2. PROC will not give up on unification with peaceful means.
3. PROC will keep placing hope in the Taiwanese. (Explanation: It is almost impossible to understand what he really meant by just this line. However, he did elaborate afterwards. My interpretation based on what he said is this: he was assuming the entire Taiwanese population as believers in eventual unification and thus expecting a Taiwanese resolution that fits the Chinese agenda on the issue.)
4. Any motion of Taiwanese independence will be met with absolute opposition from the PROC.
So here is my summary on his statement:
Peace can only be maintained on the condition that Taiwan unifies with China and independence of Taiwan is out of the question.
What admiral posted could very much be true though, since it fits the typical pattern (the mentioning of 92 consensus and peaceful unification). Notice how they never mention the possibility of peaceful independence? That's what I call the "bully strategy": "Give me you lunch money then I will let you go *peacefully*. See? I am so peaceful." |
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admiral
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:28 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, the translation of you is even better.
But the explanation of KHF seems agressive, and aiming, though not objective.
To understand the whole thing, one should really try to read China's history, and to try to think in this way, and not in one's personal thought, if one is not living in China. Because China is not australia, right?
To repeat some examples:
The Iraq war has been established, not because of the 11.9., because it's only an excuse. It has been established because of the great demand of it's people who stood after the manifest destiny.
Britain has helped Bush, not for the same ideology, but only for the political friendship.
I know, some people are referring China to such guys, because they only know such concepts as an european/american, and also because this event is really up to date.
The point is: China is not thinking in this capitalistic way as these guys do. And so these blank accusations are referred to another event with another historical background.
Quarrels won't stop in this world.
People who react to an event should not try to think what they would do in their surrounding based on their history in other surroundings.
That is also my humble opinion.
Maybe the remembering of his manifest destiny could be the point why Bush disagreed to claim his help towards taiwan.
Now, thanks for reading until now, and if you still read, I want to tell you the real problem behind all that.
It's not that wars should be fought by anger, which could end in wars, it's the problem to end one nation's past. To achieve this, the only way is to guarantee the world in growing together.
This can only be achieved if no country's president thinks for their own, if they could make a council together, see for example NATO, which inclouds all countries and which should have more possibilities to decide than the president.
edit: And this new NATO should not be a longer arm of the USA.
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I love inside you everyone else. I love the whole world because of you. I also love myself inside you"
Last edited by admiral on Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| stellara wrote: |
| okay, don't kid me! if i'd think you really don't know the reason then okay, but the way you wrote it you seem to know. unlike me, i don't know much about the issue of taiwan and china, only that there is an issue and that taiwan wants to be independent and china wants it to be united with it. that was it. so i asked because it actually is quite an interesting issue so i wanted to talk with you about it - for that i have to know what the basics are. as for your example (assuming that you don't know), democratic germany was mainly united with the federl germany because it belonged for such a long time to germany and becaus eit was much too little to be a real independent state, as far as i know, i'm not a hiostory professor i don't know if it's the same with taiwan, that's why i asked. |
I was not kidding you! I was as serious as you are usually. yeah, democratic germany was mainly united with the federl germany because it belonged for such a long time to germany. and TaiWan belonged to China for a far longer time!! TaiWan's people and Mainlandic people are the same nationality and we are like family for each other. further, we share the same history and culture. how come it should be independent? a mom always wants her kid back. no matter what happened, that's the reason. so when I read your opinion, I think it's so naive, and I spoke out my thoughts out loud.
| stellara wrote: |
| with "interfere" i just meant that it's very difficult for me to understand such a complex issue as taiwan when after every attempt of explanation there's another, parallel discussion started, whether this person is right or not, whether he could understand it or not |
but I still don't think it is proper to call people "interfere" when people are trying to join a discussion. and I don't think any participant had interfered in the discussion by joining it. however, since you had no malic, that's ok. |
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KHF
Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 100
Location: ON, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| admiral wrote: |
Yeah, the translation of you is even better.
But the explanation of KHF seems agressive, and aiming, though not objective. |
Aggressive and aiming maybe, but it is a logical conclusion. In what way is it not objective?
| admiral wrote: |
| To understand the whole thing, one should really try to read China's history, and to try to think in this way, and not in one's personal thought, if one is not living in China. Because China is not australia, right? |
Trust me, I probably know more about the history of China than you initially thought. In fact, if you just go to the first page of this thread you would find a post by me that covers the background of the issue.
| admiral wrote: |
To repeat some examples:
The Iraq war has been established, not because of the 11.9., because it's only an excuse. It has been established because of the great demand of it's people who stood after the manifest destiny.
Britain has helped Bush, not for the same ideology, but only for the political friendship. |
I fail to see the relevancy of bringing up the war on Iraq.
| admiral wrote: |
| I know, some people are referring China to such guys, because they only know such concepts as an european/american, and also because this event is really up to date. |
Please elaborate. Referring China to what? Now I have said this before, and I will say this again. The right or wrong of one thing does not depend the interpreter's race or nationality.
| admiral wrote: |
| The point is: China is not thinking in this capitalistic way as these guys do. And so these blank accusations are referred to another event with another historical background. |
As though morality differs from a capitalist to a communist. When you murder someone, you become a murderer, period. Just like when you try to force people to submit, you have already violated their rights to choose in every way.
| admiral wrote: |
Quarrels won't stop in this world.
People who react to an event should not try to think what they would do in their surrounding based on their history in other surroundings.
That is also my humble opinion. |
And this is the last time I shall say this: Please stop using the *foreigners don't understand* strategy. It will save you unnecessary troubles of typing all of the above, just to find out I was born and raised in Taiwan. The majority of what I believe and hold true is based on my experiences and the data I have gathered during the course of my lifetime, not some non-existent effects from my heritage. Heck, I am not even Canadian.
Same applies to everyone else.
| admiral wrote: |
| Maybe the remembering of his manifest destiny could be the point why Bush disagreed to claim his help towards taiwan. |
Destiny is a thing shaped by your own hands, not some mythical power that dictates your course of actions.
| admiral wrote: |
Now, thanks for reading until now, and if you still read, I want to tell you the real problem behind all that.
It's not that wars should be fought by anger, which could end in wars, it's the problem to end one nation's past. To achieve this, the only way is to guarantee the world in growing together.
This can only be achieved if no country's president thinks for their own, if they could make a council together, see for example NATO, which inclouds all countries and which should have more possibilities to decide than the president. |
Unfortunately, the world doesn't *grow* together. When the people no longer feel they belong, the nation splits. Just try to find where the Roman empire is today, you will find absolutely nothing except a city named Rome located in Italy. Can you say for sure that the Europe under just one Roman banner would've been better than the Europe we have today? As for NATO, you do realize that it is a defensive pact, not an actual ruling body, right? In the end, it is still the president (or chairman) that serves as the leader of a nation, not NATO. |
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KHF
Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 100
Location: ON, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| RedRose wrote: |
| I was not kidding you! I was as serious as you are usually. yeah, democratic germany was mainly united with the federl germany because it belonged for such a long time to germany. and TaiWan belonged to China for a far longer time!! TaiWan's people and Mainlandic people are the same nationality and we are like family for each other. further, we share the same history and culture. how come it should be independent? a mom always wants her kid back. no matter what happened, that's the reason. so when I read your opinion, I think it's so naive, and I spoke out my thoughts out loud. |
That analogy is hypocritical all by itself. Ever seen a mother telling her kid "come home or I will shoot you in the face"?
The following is my analysis:
I am pretty sure "the integrity of a nation" actually has little importance in the minds of CPC high-level officials. If it is so important, they wouldn't let Outer Mongolia go that easily. IMHO, the most significant reason for the acquirement of Taiwan to the PROC is to obtain control of the region. Taiwan with its geographic location serves as a gateway of Eastern Asia. Controlling Taiwan means controlling the coastal trade routes connecting to Japan and Korea. Since Japan and Korea both are industrial nations but do not produce oil, the loss of coastal trade means the collapse of their economy. Thus, it will only be a matter of time before they submit to the will of the PROC. This of course, undermines if not destroys the US plan for an Eastern Asia defense line (presumably will be used as a mean of control for the growing power of China). All in all, Taiwan is nothing but a pawn in this new era of cold war between an existing super power (the US) and an emerging one (China).
There is also the added benefit of the destruction of an old nemesis that has served as an inspiration and refuge for the resistance against communism in China. Not to mention the hefty amount of money that will come from it. |
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admiral
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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If someone tries to specify his post on someone another's post by quoting an overdosis of his posting, then it's aggressive. And such a discussing should be done in a peaceful way.
And something becomes not objective if it's writer becomes addicting to some other member's post to create an one-against-one discussing battle, where each member uses some points in the previour one's, to challenge the other.
And according to KHF: I didn't want you to feel addressed, and I didn't doubt your knowledge about China because it's every guy's right to build up his own opinion.
And so I showed you my opinion about Iraq: We all know that there is no ABC weapon in Iraq. And we know that the reason of Bush doing the war was because of the history of the manifest destiny.
But China didn't have such manifest destiny thought, so it could be one of the misunderstanding europeans could make.
The other misunderstanding is to think that the taiwan policy of China was purely for their own interest. And that's why I suggested that the world should grow together, to let the history of every country become one. Because at this time a fair judgement could be made.
The last misunderstanding was concerning the manifest destiny. This is, I wonder you don't know, the hidden ideal of americans to conquer other countries, to free them and to set the idea of free trade at work.
And now I wanted to tell you that something which doesn't seem propable doesn't mean that it's impossible. I would recommend you searching for stuffs concerning Johan Galtung. And maybe, if you think that's ok, you could recommend it to other guys. I think it's an good idea: Peace by peaceful solutions, because war can not set peace.
I think that Hu Jing Tao's opinion could also be this. And that's probably why he still insists in a peaceful solution, although USA, Russia and many of the countries started supporting China.
Oh, and maybe a last misunderstanding: NATO is not the ruling body, because it's the instrument of the ruling body to achieve it's aim.
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I love inside you everyone else. I love the whole world because of you. I also love myself inside you" |
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admiral
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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That analogy is hypocritical all by itself. Ever seen a mother telling her kid "come home or I will shoot you in the face"?
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I guess the problem is the following:
I guess you personally, because you have this manifest destiny spirit of american people, are thinking that chinese people would think so.
And according to this guess, my advice to you is to be more tolerant in discussing, see my last posting.
For everyone who doesn't know what manifest destiny is:
http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar/dialogues/prelude/manifest/d2aeng.html
And for those who are too lazy to read:
| Quote: |
| Manifest Destiny -- a phrase used by leaders and politicians in the 1840s to explain continental expansion by the United States -- revitalized a sense of "mission" or national destiny for Americans. |
The problem is that China is not USA, and HuJingTao is none of the American presidents.
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If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I love inside you everyone else. I love the whole world because of you. I also love myself inside you" |
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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KFK, of all people here who are discussing the issue, you are the biggest hypocrite! as a foreigner, you hope another country gets taken apart, and you call a country, who wants another part of hers back, "bully strategy", and you make you look like an avatar of integrity. haha! once again! who are you? who do you think you are? you are not the qualified one who should tell us how to deal with TaiWan Issue.
fortunately, your desire, I mean you hope China gets separate, will never come true. I guess that would be a fine blow for you. I don't wanna waste my time with such an airhead anymore. take care! |
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