Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

missdaredevil · Joined: 08 Dec 2004 Posts: 1670 Location: Ask me

When I visited the Arctic and talked to Eskimos when described sea ice disappearing , permafrost melting and visites by robins, *for *which they have no word in the the local language.

What does that *for* mean?

Thanks

Brian Boyd · Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 176 Location: Bangkok, Thailand

Think about it like this:

They have no word for robins in the local language.

In the local language they have no word for robins.

Robins are something which they have no word for in the local language.

Robins are something for which they have no word in the local language.

See how they all use the word 'for'? It just moves around depending on how you phrase the statement.

bud · Joined: 09 Mar 2003 Posts: 2111 Location: New Jersey, US

Think of "for which" as belonging together. You could split them up, though: "... visits by robins, which they have no word for in the local language." The revision is clumsy; the original is not.

In other words, it is needed to connect "word" with "local language."

By the way, there is a problem in the first clause. "When described" doesn't work correctly. I can't think of a good way to make a simple edit, though.

BMO · Joined: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 705

Can you replace "when described' with describing?

bud · Joined: 09 Mar 2003 Posts: 2111 Location: New Jersey, US

Yes and no. That edit makes the first clause correct, but it still leaves the whole thing as an incomplete sentence.

pugachevV · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 2295

I think the second when in your example is incorrect.
It makes more sense if you write: When I visited the Arctic and talked to Eskimos, they described sea ice disappearing , permafrost melting, and visits by Robins, *for *which they have no word in the the local language.
.

BMO · Joined: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 705

bud · Joined: 09 Mar 2003 Posts: 2111 Location: New Jersey, US

That works, PugachevV. Thank you!

pugachevV · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 2295

The sentence is complete and makes sense. The for which refers to Robins (a type of bird) which are so unusual that far north that the Inuit have no word for them in their language.

LucentShade · Joined: 30 Dec 2003 Posts: 542 Location: Nebraska, USA

In everyday speech or informal writing, you might see, "...robins, which they have no word for in the local language." In this version with the preposition in a different place, the expression "word for ***" is more apparent. An example:

"What's the word in Spanish for 'place'?"

"Lugar."

Formal English requires prepositions like "for" to be placed before relative pronouns like who/whom/which--it is more common to see them placed later, as in "Where are you from?" (informall) vs. "From where are you?" (formal)