Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[Shinae]

Hi there?

I was wondering if these two sentences below are right? All the sentences are trying to say the same thing.

1. There is a yellow, sturdy chair.

2. There is a yellow and sturdy chair.
(Can I use "and" here?)

Also, I am having some problems attaching right articles in front of places, e.g. Dover's Hotel or Hotel Mark Hampton.
(the hotel names are made up and not meant to refer to any hotel in real.) Do you know any web site that can be of help or any good books that go in detail on this. Thank you again.

[lotus]

Hi Shinae,

Both are correct, but #1 is more common. The "and" is probably not necessary. It can also be said as "There is a yellow sturdy chair." We usually put the more important adjective up front; "There is a sturdy yellow chair." If you're pointing out the object, you might say "Over there is a sturdy yellow chair."

Hotels are often referred to by their proper names. Examples:

Hotel Nikko
The Fairmont Hotel
Four Seasons Hotel

We generally do not turn the name around for our own sake. For example, we do not say:

The Nikko Hotel
Hotel Fairmont
The Hotel Four Seasons

We usually keep the hotel proper name. The most we might do is add "the" in front of the hotel name.


--lotus

[eslRC]

Here's some information about the order
of adjectives before nouns:
http://www.english-the-easy-way.com/Adjectives/Adjectives_Before_Nouns.htm

Several good books for learning about this and other
English usage concerns are:

How English Works (Michael Swan and Catherine Walter).
This book includes lessons with exercises for practice.

Practical English (Michael Swan)
This is a very detailed reference book.
No exercises for practice.

Master the Basics- English (Jean Yates)
This is a good, yet more basic book for studying English usage.
It has some practice exercises.

These three books are all helpful. The first two are British,
but most of the information also works for American English.

[lotus]

Hi Shinae,

Rules are rules - and we should follow them when we are learning English. These are nice rules about adjective order:

http://web2.uvcs.uvic.ca/elc/studyzone/410/grammar/adjord.htm
Notice the order is slightly different in this link.

However; in conversational English, we do not always adhere to these rules. In my humble opinion - adjective order in natural speech ends up following two basic rules; importance (IM) and number of syllables (SY). The most important adjective (the one you want to stress) usually comes first. The longest sounding word (in syllables) usually comes last. It is a combination of these two which creates the order. Sometimes you don't get the same order - depending on how you feel.

the big beautiful tree - SY
the shiny red apple - IM
the golden heart-shaped pendant - IM*
the kind old grandpa - IM
the old benevolent grandfather - SY*

You'll notice that the phrases in asterisk(*) do not follow the adjective order rule - yet they sound very natural to me.

Grammar rules should be followed when learning English. But, technical English and conversational English are not always the same. As the English Learner progresses toward conversational English, he/she may find surprising unofficial patterns in English speech.


--lotus

[Shinae]

Thank to you all, much appreciated.