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"Merit" pay for teachers???
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Is this a valid idea?
Yes
60%
 60%  [ 3 ]
No
20%
 20%  [ 1 ]
It depends
20%
 20%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 5

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ebb



Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 87
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:05 am    Post subject: "Merit" pay for teachers??? Reply with quote

Houston, Texas became the largest school district in the country on Thursday to adopt a merit pay plan for teachers that focuses on students' tests scores.

By a 9-0 vote, the Houston school board approved a plan that offers teachers as much as $3,000 in extra pay if their students improve on state and national tests. The program could be expanded to provide as much as $10,000 in merit pay for teachers.

What do you think ??
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admiral



Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 546

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

good idea, then the teachers will try to help the students
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ebb



Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 87
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aren't they ALREADY getting paid for trying to help the students???
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Lorikeet



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 1877
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great idea (add sarcasm here--I don't think it's a great idea at all.)

Now teachers can teach to the test instead of teaching what the students need. Also, teachers can concentrate on teaching in the better schools, where students are more likely to pass the exams. They can ask for the classes of fast learners so they don't have to get "stuck" with the slow ones. The teachers with the easiest job will get the most money. The ones struggling to help those who need the most help, and don't make the benchmark, will not be rewarded.
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ebb



Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 87
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what about letting the students vote on the teachers, as a means of allocating bonus money?
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"You can get more with a kind word and a gun, than with just a kind word." Al Capone.
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KHF



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 100
Location: ON, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the prospect of letting students vote much better. In fact, it's already being done in a lot of colleges/universities.

The problem of allocating bonus based on test score is that test score cannot wholly represent the efficiency of a teacher. It merely means the student is better prepared for the questions on the test. That could stem from different reasons, some being particularly nasty (ie: leaked questions, overly detailed hints...etc). Also this policy will more than likely drive the teachers into an unhealthy competition. Some might start holding classes outside of school hours, and some might attempt to force students to attend them. Guess who gets hurt the most in the process?
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admiral



Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 546

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

uum, but some teachers don't pay any attention in letting his students to be good in school. They only say that's their problem. So many student's miss help.

For example me, I would be happy if there is always somebody there in school whom I could ask for homework etc.
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KHF



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 100
Location: ON, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a teacher, he/she is obligated to help students regarding to their questions on the school subjects. In mandatory education (ie: high school/elementary school) usually there isn't a designated office hour. However, the students should be able to find the teachers in their respective offices rather easily. In post secondary education(university/college), the professors will have office hours. Some that really do care about students indeed hold extra ones beyond the scope of their contracts, but there certainly isn't any shortage for help. That's the situation in North America anyway. Since the story took place in Texas, it applies to this particular discussion.

Then again, what if we let the students vote instead of looking at the marks? You reward the teachers that students like instead. That's the whole point isn't it? What can be better than an institution students actually enjoy?
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ebb



Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

God forbid that they might actually ENJOY it. Then the students might get the heretical notion that learning could be FUN. This would no doubt spell the end of the educational system as we know it.
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admiral



Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 546

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But how do you know that, if they enjoy it, they will learn less than usual?
I rather think that perhaps they will learn more. And that's a good idea.
Referring things to a god who likes war and who likes America to conquer the world is not good, either.
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KHF



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 100
Location: ON, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought ebb was being sarcastic towards those who made the decision.
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Bob S.



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 1767
Location: So. Cal

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lorikeet wrote:
Now teachers can teach to the test instead of teaching what the students need.

The solution to that is easy: whatever you think a child should know by a given grade level, put it on the test. So when a teacher teaches to the test, they will be teaching what a child needs to know.
If by the 3rd grade you think a child should know that the Earth orbits the Sun and not the other way around, put it on the test. If by 5th grade you think a child should know that oxygen is an element and water is a compound, put it on the test. If by the 7th grade you want them to be able to figure that for right triangles, A�+B�=C�, put it on the test.

Quote:
They can ask for the classes of fast learners so they don't have to get "stuck" with the slow ones. The teachers with the easiest job will get the most money. The ones struggling to help those who need the most help, and don't make the benchmark, will not be rewarded.

That's the one criticism I can see making this idea or merit pay break down. A good teacher who inherits dumb kids from a previous crappy teacher won't get the recognition and pay they deserve. An improvement on this idea would be to find a way to chart or quantify students' progress during their tutelage of a given teacher. That means taking a test at the beginning of the school year, then a similar test toward the end of the year to see if the child actually learned something. A 5th grade teacher who starts the year with a student who has a 2nd grade reading level will still get points if they can get the child up to at least a 4th grade level.
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KHF



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 100
Location: ON, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob S. wrote:
The solution to that is easy: whatever you think a child should know by a given grade level, put it on the test. So when a teacher teaches to the test, they will be teaching what a child needs to know.
If by the 3rd grade you think a child should know that the Earth orbits the Sun and not the other way around, put it on the test. If by 5th grade you think a child should know that oxygen is an element and water is a compound, put it on the test. If by the 7th grade you want them to be able to figure that for right triangles, A�+B�=C�, put it on the test.


That's not a solution because in the context of this event, the students are tested by a state or national exam. Generally a teacher does not have control over what questions are going to be in those exams. Even if they are using the students overall grade, it would be way too convenient for the instructor to cheat. Make easy tests all the time would be one way to do it.

Bob S. wrote:
That's the one criticism I can see making this idea or merit pay break down. A good teacher who inherits dumb kids from a previous crappy teacher won't get the recognition and pay they deserve. An improvement on this idea would be to find a way to chart or quantify students' progress during their tutelage of a given teacher. That means taking a test at the beginning of the school year, then a similar test toward the end of the year to see if the child actually learned something. A 5th grade teacher who starts the year with a student who has a 2nd grade reading level will still get points if they can get the child up to at least a 4th grade level.


Define "dumb students". I am assuming we are talking about students under grade 12 here. Having bad grades under grade 10 hardly says anything about the student's ability. Even if he is in grade 12, that still doesn't justify marketing "good grades" as an essential component for high school students. A student might want to simply get a diploma and work on his father's farm. Who are the teachers to whine about him just because he stands between them and their petty merit pay?

Frankly the more I think about this merit pay thing the more I am leaning towards not having it at all. Teaching performence is simply too hard to gauge. Using test score is too one dimensional and asking a high school student is risky. Perhaps a government sponsored evaluation program is better, but that's just not doable in a scale like this.
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Bob S.



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 1767
Location: So. Cal

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KHF wrote:
Generally a teacher does not have control over what questions are going to be in those exams.

Nor would you want them to. There would have to be some established baseline national standards based on interested parties' (parents, teachers) collective input.

Quote:
Even if they are using the students overall grade, it would be way too convenient for the instructor to cheat.

Yeah, grade inflation makes overall academic grades fairly worthless. It would have to be normalized with respect to some national academic test (which is why universities use SAT or ACT tests and not just a student's GPA).

Quote:
Define "dumb students".

Someone who (for whatever reason but mostly related to choice) is performing far below their peers nationally (or internationally). For example, I was always pretty sharp with math and science geek stuff, but when it comes to seplilng ablitiy, I'm as dumb as a post! Razz

Quote:
I am assuming we are talking about students under grade 12 here.

Heck, I'm talking about students under grade 9. Up through junior high, most students have fairly indentical curricula. Once they reach high school, students start to have a choice of electives to specialize their own choice of study. It seems unfair to compare two students of differing ability and goals, one taking 4 years of HS math up through Calculus because (s)he's planning to be an astronaut while the other takes 2 years up through Algebra because that is enough to get a diploma.

Quote:
Teaching performence is simply too hard to gauge. Using test score is too one dimensional and asking a high school student is risky. Perhaps a government sponsored evaluation program is better, but that's just not doable in a scale like this.

I agree it's a challenge to find a way to compare apples to apples at a HS level. I have no idea how to do that. It would probably have to do with a complex combination of graduation rates, national tests based on year of subject, and some random voodoo pulled out of the politicians' collective asses.
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cheetah



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotting extra pay if their students improve on state and national tests? That is what Chinese are doing now. And they are trying to change this situation, though it is hard.

Student's score should be a basis, but not the only basis!
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