Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[hela]

Dear teachers,

Would you please have a look at my exercise? Would you have MORE sentences for me to do?

Rewrite these sentences using a genitive whenever it is possible and making the necessary changes.

1) The goal of Bill Clinton is to make a distinction between legal and illegal immigration.

Bill Clinton'S goal is to make a distinction between legal and illegal immigration.

2) The short-term costs of immigration are very high. NO CHANGE (?)

3) The figures published last year show an increase in the number of Asian immigrants. NO CHANGE ?

4) Romeo and Juliet forfeit their lives partly as a result of the hatred and the prejudice of their parents. (is this sentence correct ?)

Romeo and Juliet forfeit their lives partly as a result of their parentS' hatred and prejudice.

5) The leader of the students was an excellent speaker. NO CHANGE

Thanks a lot,
Hela

[advoca]

Hela:
You quote a test question: Rewrite these sentences using a genitive whenever it is possible and making the necessary changes.

This is a strange way of putting this question and it is unclear. I do not know what �a genitive� is.

There is what is known as a genitive �s (known as the Saxon genitive) and long ago there was a genitive case in English (though many other languages still have a genitive case today) However, the genitive case barely exists in English today.

You may still hear someone say something like "The father of the bride," but it could equally be said as "The bride�s father." You may also hear �The car's door is open. � This example shows that one noun belongs to another noun. The noun "door" belongs to the car, so "car's" is put into the possessive case. The noun "door" is the nominative case because it's the thing which is open -- it's the subject of the verb "is".

Today we use what is loosely known as the possessive case to indicate a relation of ownership or association. Both nouns and pronouns are inflected in the possessive case. However, linguists generally believe that English possessive is no longer a case at all, but has become a clitic, an unstressed word, typically a function word, that is incapable of standing on its own and is an independent particle. However, it is always pronounced as part of the preceding word. This can be shown by the following example: �The king of Sparta's wife was called Helen.� If the English -'s were a genitive case mark, then the wife would belong to Sparta; but the -'s attaches not to the word Sparta, but to the entire phrase the king of Sparta.

A few remnants of the genitive case do remain in Modern English in a few pronouns such as whose, the genitive form of who; likewise, my/mine, his/hers/its, our/ours, their/theirs.

[hela]

Dear Advoca,

Thank you for your explanations. They are very interesting and useful.

So you think that the question should be changed into "Put the sentences in the POSSESSIVE FORM" if necessary?" What's the difference between A FORM and A CASE, please?

Now, what do you tink of my corrections are they OK?

1) The goal of Bill Clinton is to make a distinction between legal and illegal immigration.

Bill Clinton'S goal is to make a distinction between legal and illegal immigration.

2) The short-term costs of immigration are very high.
Immigration'S short-term costs are very hight; (POSSIBLE ?)

3) The figures published last year show an increase in the number of Asian immigrants.

Last year'S figures show an increase in the Asian immigrants' number . (POSSIBLE ?)

4) Romeo and Juliet forfeit their lives partly as a result of the hatred and the prejudice of their parents. (is this sentence correct ?)

Romeo and Juliet forfeit their lives partly as a result of their parents' hatred and prejudice.

5) The leader of the students was an excellent speaker.
The students' leader was an excellent speaker.

6) Treasure Island�s author, Robert Louis Stevenson, was a Scotsman born in Edinburgh in 1850.
(Now, how do you explain the use of the possessive here since "Treasure Island" is not a person but a book? Is it one those exceptions?)

Would you have more sentences for me please? And sentences that CANNOT take the possessive form?

Many thanks!

[advoca]

You ask tough questions (and many of them too)

[advoca]

Forming Possessives
(From The American Heritage� Book of English Usage.)

In English the possessive case is used to show not only simple possession but also a variety of other relationships between the noun marked for possession and the noun that follows:
John�s car, the senator�s aide (possession or belonging)
the tide�s ebbing, Amy�s presentation (subject of an action)
the company�s owners, the hero�s betrayal (object of an action)
learner�s dictionary, a women�s college (description or type)
my father�s gentleness, the character�s greed (attribute)
the bird�s wing, the book�s cover (a constituent part)
Beethoven�s symphonies, grandmother�s letter (origin)
a day�s journey, an arm�s length (measure or amount)

Following are the few basic rules for forming the possessive case in English.

The possessive case of a singular noun is formed by adding -�s: one�s home, by day�s end, our family�s pet, the witness�s testimony, a fox�s habitat, the knife�s edge. Note that although some people use just the apostrophe after singular nouns ending in s (the witness� testimony, Burns� poetry), the -�s is generally preferred because it more accurately reflects the modern pronunciation of these forms. However, in a few cases where the -�s is not pronounced, it is usual to add just the apostrophe: for righteousness� (appearance�) sake.

The possessive case of a plural noun ending in -s is formed by adding just an apostrophe: the doctors� recommendations, the glasses� rims, the flies� buzzing noises. However, when the plural noun does not end in -s, form the possessive by adding -�s: children�s clothes.

The possessive case of most proper nouns is formed according to the rules for common nouns: (singular) Eliot�s novels, Yeats�s poetry, Dostoyevsky�s biography, Vel�zquez�s paintings; (plural) the McCarthys� and the Williamses� parties, the Schwartzes� trip. By convention, however, certain proper nouns ending in s form the possessive by adding just the apostrophe since adding -�s would make the pronunciation difficult or awkward: Jesus� teachings, Moses� children, Achilles� heel Hercules� strength, Ramses� reign, Xerxes� conquest.

For compound names or titles that form short phrases, add the -�s or apostrophe to the final element: the King of Belgium�s birthday, Saint Francis of Assisi�s life, the governor of New York�s speech. Long phrases such as the man we met on the train�s sister should be avoided in writing. Reword them using of: the sister of the man we met on the train.

When two or more people or things possess something jointly, add the -�s or apostrophe to the last element only: Martha and Dan�s house. However, when two or more people or things possess something separately, add the -�s or apostrophe to each element: the Smiths� and the Joneses� houses are for sale.

[hela]

Thank you VERY much indeed, Advoca. All this is very useful, and I'll study it carefully. I have more questions though... hope you don't mind

1) You said:

[butane317]

I cannot answer all of your questions because I do not know the answer, but I will do my best. Advoca seems to be doing a very good job too.

1) I have never heard of this rule before. I consider it equaly proper either way. However, I would phrase it yet another way. I would say "the car door is broken," without using a possessive at all. Since I use "the" instead of "a," it will be clear to the listener I am talking about a specific car, and it should be easy to tell from context what car I am talking about. If I am in my car, and the radio was broken, I would say "the car radio is broken," obviously refering to my own car, since no music would be playing. However, if a car drove by me with a broken door, I could say "the car door is broken," and indicate with a hand gesture or head nod toward the car with the broken door. Along with the fact that my own car's door was in perfect shape, it would be apparent to the listener which car I was talking about. As a matter of personal preference, I would probably say "that car's door is broken," but the previous example is used by many people every day around me.

As an additional note, I would never say "the hard drive of the computer is broken." To me, it is always always always "the computer's hard drive!" I cannot explain why, but "the hard drive of the computer is broken" sounds horribly strange to me, and if someone around me consistently said things like that it would drive me insane. It's perfectly proper grammar, but it just sounds bad to me. Does anyone else notice this?

3) That is correct, but it doesn't sound quite right to me. I would use "the author of Treasure Island instead. Why, I cannot tell you. Convention I guess.

4) You are exactly right. I don't even do it consciously, but I always try to avoid repeating something when I can make it obvious in context. That sentence doesn't strike me as being improper grammar, although it probably is.

5) Your question doesn't make much sense to me. What else would we say? Where did this sentence come from?
_________________
Definitions of words I give are the definitions as I learned them and as I use them in everyday life. I am from the midwest area of America. People speaking English in other parts of the world, or even America, may use the words differently than I do.

[hela]

Thanks butane for your explanations.

Now as for #5: "Why do we say: "The Song of Solomon and the Gospel of John are two of the most beautiful books of the Bible."

[butane317]

These are just different names for books of the Bible. The expressions "Song of Solomon" and "Gospel of John" have been around for centuries, and back then, that's the way they talked. You have a very good point, and if we were translating the Bible into English for the first time today, we would probably use your answers.
_________________
Definitions of words I give are the definitions as I learned them and as I use them in everyday life. I am from the midwest area of America. People speaking English in other parts of the world, or even America, may use the words differently than I do.