Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[BMO]

They are brother and sister.

Brother and sister are countable nouns. How come there are no articles in front of them?

[bud]

That's a toughie, BMO.

If there's only one of each, then singular makes sense.

If there are at least three people, you could use a plural (or plurals). Then you are treating them as countable nouns. If you stay with the singulars, though, you are no longer focusing on the number of people involved (the countables), but on the general concept of their relatedness.

[BMO]

I always give you guys tough questions, huh? But it does look so simple. Bud, it must be the concept that makes brother and sister functioning like an uncountable like dignity. Individually brother and sister are countable nouns.

Do you think brother and sister = 2, so it is like they are "friends," they are "comrades?"

Thanks.

[bud]

[BMO]

You know, if "brother and sister" is a short for "brother and sister relationship" then I can understand better.

[advoca]

BMO

I do not understand your problem.

Just imagine this conversation.

"I see you have two new students in your class. Are they related?"

"Yes. They are brother and sister."

You cannot say, "They are the brother and sister." You cannot say, "They are a brother and sister." You cannot say. "They have a brother and sister relationship."

They are brother and sister.

It would be the same if they were father and daughter. Quite simply, "They are father and daughter."

Does this help?

[BMO]

No. I know you can't have articles before "brother" or "sister" when they are singular, and you must have a plural brother or sister if they are more than one. For example, the three of them are brothers and sister.

However, brother and sister are countable nouns. The only explanation is that "brother and sister" is a concept.

[lotus]

First time post in this forum.


Hi BMO,

In the end, language is a concept.

Think of "brother and sister" as "pair" or "a pair" and it will make sense. In either case, you have your article.

They are (brother and sister).
They are (a pair).

They are a (brother and sister) team.
They are a pair team.

When we speak of a group of people (three or more) who are siblings, we usually use "brothers and sisters" - even if only one of them is a sister. (This probably has more to do with their relationship than counting. For example; two of the brothers can call her sister.)

The three of them are brothers and sisters.

Replace (brothers and sisters) with (siblings) or (closely-related persons) and again it will make sense.

The movie "Cheaper by the Dozen" had 12 (brothers and sisters) in it.
The movie "Cheaper by the Dozen" had 12 (siblings) in it.

The entire congregation of the church were considered (brothers and sisters).
The entire congregation of the church were considered (closely-related persons).


--lotus

[bud]

Yes, "brother and sister" is being used as a concept. By saying it that way, you are acknowledging that he is her brother and she is his sister, of course, but your focus is on the concept of the relationship of brother and sister. The focus is more on the relationship than the two particular people.

It's also common to say, "We are family!" (For example, when two brothers are talking to a third person.) The third person might already know that. What the statement is saying is that we have a very close bond, we think alike, we support each other, etc. The focus is on the concept of what it means to be members of the same family.

[advoca]

Dear BMO,

You have taken only part of the rule about the use of the article.


A countable noun always takes either the indefinite (a, an) or definite (the) article when it is singular. When plural, it takes the definite article if it refers to a definite, specific group, but no article if it is used in a general sense.

The guest of honour arrived late.
You are welcome as a guest in our home.
The guests at your party yesterday made a lot of noise.
BUT
Guests are welcome anytime.

Uncountable nouns never take the indefinite article (a or an), but they do take singular verbs. The is sometimes used with uncountable nouns in the same way it is used with plural countable nouns, that is, to refer to a specific object, group, or idea.

The information in your files is correct.
BUT
Information is a precious commodity in our computerized world.

Please pass me the sugar.
BUT
Sugar has become more expensive recently.

The omission of articles also expresses a generic (or general) meaning. For example

no article with a plural noun:
Tigers are dangerous animals. (all tigers)
Brothers are often horrid to sisters.

no article with a noncountable noun:
Anger is a destructive emotion. (any kind of anger)


While some nouns combine with one article or the other based on whether they are countable or noncountable, others simply never take either article. Some common types of nouns that don't take an article are:

1. Names of languages and nationalities
a. Chinese
b. English
c. Spanish
d. Russian

What nationalities are in your class? American and Chinese.

2. Names of sports
a. volleyball
b. hockey
c. baseball

I like playing baseball and hockey.

3. Names of academic subjects
a. mathematics
b. biology
c. history
d. computer science

I am studying mathematics and computer science.

Does this clear up your concern? Does this answer your questions?

[bud]

One more thought on this...

"They are a brother and a sister" loses the meaning that they are each other's sibling. In my opinion, it says that he has a sibling (not necessarily her) and she has a sibling (not necessarily him).

With "They are a brother and sister," I'd say it is much more likely that they are each other's sibling. But here, the main focus shifts from the concept of the relationship to the two people themselves. In practical terms, it does not change the intended meaning very much; it just changes the focus a bit.

[BMO]

Thank you all for these detailed explanations. It will take me some time to digest, but from the first glance, they are all very useful. I will get back to this.

This is an excellent website for us ESL students. It looks like we have more teachers than students, and everyone of you is so helpful. Thank you all.

bmo