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would rather
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hela



Joined: 02 May 2004
Posts: 420
Location: Tunisia

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:47 am    Post subject: would rather Reply with quote

Dear teachers,

1) If "would rather" is used with a single pronoun, is the form of the verb that follows it a bare infinitive or a present subjunctive ?

e.g. He would rather BE alone.

2) If "would rather" is used with 2 pronouns, should the form of the verb that follows it be in the present subjunctive or the past subjunctive ?

e.g. I'd rather you LEAVE / LEFT now.
She'd rather they STAY / STAYED.
We'd rather they LIVE / LIVED close by.
What would you rather I DO / DID ?

Thanks a lot,
Hela
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Meadowlark



Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Hela,

1. a bare infinitive
2. past subjunctive

I hope you will find the following additional information to be of help:

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv107.shtml

Prefer and would rather can be used interchangeably. When we are talking about general preferences, prefer is followed by verb-ing, thus:
I prefer listening to music to watching TV.
I'd rather listen to music than watch TV.


_'d rather

When we are talking about specifics, would rather is used as an alternative to would prefer to followed by an infinitive.

Would rather is very common in spoken English and is often abbreviated to _'d rather. It is used in this form with all personal pronouns:
I'd / you'd / he'd / she'd / we'd / they'd rather

Examples:
Would you like to go out for dinner tonight? ~ No, I think I'd rather eat at home / I'd prefer to eat at home.

Would you rather drink beer or wine with the curry ~ I'd rather drink beer. What about you?

They'd rather have the strawberries by themselves, but I'd prefer to have them with cream.

Note that would rather is followed by a bare infinitive without to, whereas prefer requires to + infinitive. Would rather (but not would prefer to) is also followed by a past tense when we want to involve other people in the action, even though it has a present or future meaning.

Examples:
Shall we go out for dinner tonight? ~ No, I'd rather we ate at home, if you don't mind.

Shall I write to Harry and tell him that we've sold the car? ~ I'd rather you didn't.

My mother would rather we caught the bus, rather than walk home after the party.

~*~*~*~

From http://www.edufind.com/english/grammar/IF10.cfm

I'd rather and it's time

These two expressions are followed by an unreal past. The verb is in the past tense, but the situation is in the present.

When we want to talk about a course of action we would prefer someone else to take, we use I'd rather + past tense:

* I'd rather you went
* He'd rather you called the police
* I'd rather you didn't hunt elephants.

NOTE: the stress can be important in these sentences, to show what our preference is:

* I'd rather you went = not me,
* I'd rather you went = don't stay
* He'd rather you called the police = he doesn't want to
* He'd rather you called the police = not the ambulance service

Similarly, when we want to say that now is a suitable moment to do something, either for ourselves or for someone else, we use it's time + past tense:

* It's (high) time I went.
* It's time you paid that bill.
* Don't you think it's time you had a haircut?


Last edited by Meadowlark on Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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hela



Joined: 02 May 2004
Posts: 420
Location: Tunisia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much Meadowlark.

How would you analyse the 2 pronouns in the sentence:

I'd rather you called the police.

All the best,
Hela
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Meadowlark



Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say the speaker has a reason for avoiding the police! Wink

I'm sorry for the joke, but I don't understand what it is you'd like to know.

Meadowlark
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hela



Joined: 02 May 2004
Posts: 420
Location: Tunisia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I meant is :

"I" = subject, but what about "you"? Is it another subject or is it an object?

Best wishes
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Meadowlark



Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK now I know how to answer your question!

You is another subject. It is the subject of the phrase you called the police. The phrase is the object of the verb would rather (_'d rather). Does this help?
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hela



Joined: 02 May 2004
Posts: 420
Location: Tunisia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Meadowlark Smile
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pugachevV



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2295

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think to be grammatically correct, you should say, I would rather you call the police.
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hela



Joined: 02 May 2004
Posts: 420
Location: Tunisia

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is exactly what confuses me! Grammar books say that we should use the past subjunctive when "would rather" is accompanied by 2 subjects (or pronouns), and speakers of English seem to use the present subjunctive or bare infinitive, whatever you want to call it.
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Meadowlark



Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to every grammar reference book and the sources I quoted earlier, it is grammatically correct to use the past tense.

In any language one can find examples where large numbers of people are unaware that their choice of words is grammatically incorrect. This does not make it correct. If you need to know what is correct because you are preparing for an exam you must learn how to apply the rules from the grammar books. If you are not planning to take an exam and your goal is to be able to communicate in English, you will wish to speak as others speak. This is why I often ask students to explain the basis for their questions. Common usage is quite often different from grammar "by the book"!
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hela



Joined: 02 May 2004
Posts: 420
Location: Tunisia

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Meadowlark. Yes indeed, I'm studying grammar to specialize one day in this field and not only to be able to communicate with other people.

Have a nice a day. Smile
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obelix



Joined: 09 Feb 2003
Posts: 304

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would rather you call the police is correct.
(Present subjunctive in a hypothetical situation).
If the situation is not hypothetical, you would use the imperative - "Call the cops!"

It may well be that current usage also allows, I would rather you called the cops, but if you are learning to speak precise English, then you should know the correct form.
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Meadowlark



Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to argue this point. I stand by my previous posts.

However, I do suggest that anyone reading this consider the following questions:

Is obelisk an expert on English grammar?
Has obelisk provided any references to support his or her opinion?


Last edited by Meadowlark on Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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asterix



Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 1654

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He/she might be an expert in grammar. There's the rub.
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Meadowlark



Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he's an expert let him say so and explain why he disagrees with all the other experts. His rudeness rubs me the wrong way! Wink
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