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lotus



Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 862

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:51 am    Post subject: What are you guys doing? Reply with quote

This is the best English forum in the web. Period.

More often than not, I see respect among the contributor/teachers in this forum. Recently, I've noticed a negative trend. Several contributors have disappeared from the radar after some flammatory remarks. Is this how you treat your colleagues? I'm surrounded by teachers everyday, and believe me, they each have their own personality. But, the only personality that lasts is the one that believes teaching is a calling. Nobody gets rich by teaching. The happiest teachers are the ones who get satisfaction from knowing that they make a difference. This forum is one avenue for that expression. Each of us donate our time and experience because it give us pleasure. But occasionally, I get this pang on my side when I sense good contributors feeling alienated.

Hey, I'm sure we all have tough skin. But remember - when one enters a cause with good intentions - he/she enters cautiously, but is ready to exit quickly.


--lotus
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bud



Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 2111
Location: New Jersey, US

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wholeheartedly agree, Lotus! Very well said!

I also worry that it might alienate some of the students. How would I feel if I asked a question that turned into a battle between some of the teachers? I doubt I'd feel comfortable asking a follow-up question, and pehaps not even a new question.
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advoca



Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 422
Location: Beijing

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wholeheartedly agree, Lotus. Very well said!

I wholeheartedly agree, Bud. Very well said!

But the disagreements that have recently been triggered off by one of Hela's questions illustrate clearly the difference between "correct" grammar and the way in which many people speak.

But I hope all students will note the remarks by Lotus and Bud, and I hope all teachers will note them too. English is NOT a precise language. It is a living language. Please students, do NOT learn English by rules.

And please, Hela and Meadowlark, remember thare is a difference between learning English as a second language and learning English grammar. Only a few students on this forum (or anywhere else) want to learn English grammar but most want to learn how to speak and use English. This forum is about learning English, not learning English grammar.

So, students and teachers, lighten up, please.
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Meadowlark



Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your comments Lotus, Bud and Advoca. I've enjoyed helping students here and in the Help Center forum and I look forward to continuing to do so.

Advoca, I certainly agree that language is a living entity which is constantly evolving. My use of the word "precise" was a reference to a post made by someone else. As I've told Hela and several other students whose questions I've answered, "If you need to know what is correct because you are preparing for an exam you must learn how to apply the rules from the grammar books. If you are not planning to take an exam and your goal is to be able to communicate in English, you will wish to speak as others speak. This is why I often ask students to explain the basis for their questions. Common usage is quite often different from grammar 'by the book'."

As you may know I'm new to this forum. I've noticed that although grammar questions are often posted in the Help Center forum, there are many posted here as well. I was surprised by this as the forum description says, "Talk about your ideas on how to learn English", but as I had no reason to question what posts were allowed, I thought I�d just try to help wherever I could. When I posted my answer to Hela's question I was simply answering a student's question. It seemed that students were free to ask whatever questions they needed to have answered and Hela had explained that she's studying grammar because she wishes to specialize in that field, not just to be able to communicate with other people. She asked a question about grammar and I answered the question. I can absolutely assure you that neither of us wished to participate in a debate about the rules of grammar!

Now, based on what you said about this forum, I'm wondering if grammar questions are considered to be off topic. If I'm going to continue to help students here I would really like to know what the guidelines are. If grammar is off topic will someone redirect students� questions to the Help Center? I�m sure no one would wish students to be ignored. I�d appreciate any guidance you or anyone else may have to offer.

Meadowlark
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advoca



Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 422
Location: Beijing

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is my view that questions about grammar should be directed to the Help Section. I feel that this forum should be for students who want to learn English, not learn about English grammar.

I belong to the school of thought that believes that teaching English grammar is a separate subject from teaching spoken and written English.

I cannot imaging that Hela's questions and the answers are of interest to many students participating in this forum. Maybe I am wrong.

Let's ask students such as RedRose and Blossom.
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advoca



Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 422
Location: Beijing

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, my computer went phut before I could finish.

Hela's questions are expressly concerned with grammar, I cannot believe they and the answers are of general interest (I might be wrong, perhaps?)Anyway, here are some of Hela's questions:

How would you analyse the 2 pronouns in the sentence: I'd rather you called the police

If "would rather" is used with a single pronoun, is the form of the verb that follows it a bare infinitive or a present subjunctive ?

When we have a negative verb + an adverb should the "not" of the negative form always come after the adverb in an (sic) non-contracted form?

Is the way to parse a phrasal verb is to see if the verb can separated (sic) from its particle by an adverb or not?

When you say that a sentence element is a prepositional phrase isn't this the FORM of the element rather than its FUNCTION ? If yes, what would the FUNCTION of these phrases then? (sic)


These are questions about English Grammar, not about learning English. It is commendable that Hela is studying grammar and asking for clarification about grammatical points, but perhaps Hela should also be studying how to write English properly as well? I do not mean this rudely, but Hela's written English often shows flaws.

So let's ask students such as RedRose and Blossom, missDaredevil, river1974, sina, and any other students who would be kind enough express an opinion; should this forum concern itself with English grammar, or should questions about grammar be addressed to the Help Section?
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asterix



Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 1654

PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you could argue that "learning English" covers all aspects of the language, and in any case, Help Section is merely a click away.
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Meadowlark



Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Advoca,

Thanks for your reply. I'll be interested to hear what others may have to say.

For now I wish to apologize to Hela for any way in which my posts may have contributed to making her the focus of this discussion. I�m very unhappy that she�s been singled out in this manner. To display a list of her posts so that others may examine them, and to say that she should be studying how to write English properly because her written English often shows flaws is truly unfair. How many students use English so well that their posts contain no flaws? Have all students� posts been examined for evidence which may suggest that their study of written English is being neglected?

I have no doubt that Hela is working diligently to improve her writing and speaking skills. The fact that she posts many grammar questions doesn�t mean she is not studying other areas. As for the list of her posts, there are hundreds of posts on this forum dealing with grammar! Here are some I found after taking just a quick look:

    * What is the grammar rules for for collective nouns?

    * The particle at appears to be the goal or objective of opportunists who attempt to take advantage whenever possible. Some verbs show an endeavour to do something by the subject but we do not know if the attempt was successful or the goal was attained. The objects of some verbs are close to the subject, being within arms reach or at a distance that can be covered by a leap. The particle is always followed by the accusative which denotes the importance of the object, or goal.

    * imply is a transitive verb that is similar to suggest or infer.

    * to be subject to means to underlie somebody, to be weaker than somebody in an activity. It's an active meaning. to be subjected to means to be made to underlie. Let's say, being made to endure something. It's a passive meaning.

    * Since we use "wait" as a intransitive verb in general, i think plus "for" is more safe in grammar.


I think it�s important to mention that I also noticed quite a few posts of this type:

    * I'm really appreciate the people who have answered my English questions. I have studied English grammar book for TOEFL which has no answer sheets. Hard and Tough Job! If you give me a lot of help and cheer, I will make a much more effort than ever before.

    * This is a tough topic. I don't have any answers (none at all) for you at the moment. Maybe someone adept at grammar will join in here. Also, this is likely to drive me nuts, too. If anything occurs to me, I'll be back.

    * Study as often as possible; studying grammar and vocabulary and doing exercise can really improve your knowledge of any language. By completing exercises and taking tests, they give you a benchmark to compare your future results with. If you never test yourself, you will never know how much you are progressing.


And then there's this one:

    * I believe if a student is asking a question the answer should not be that's too advanced/too difficult/ not something you should be looking at!! Anyway i really shouldn't raise old topics again - so I'll just say to all ESL/EFL students out there (or anyone else reading this site) - Ask about anything that raises your curiosity - I'm sure someone on this site will try to give you an answer - as I used to say to my students, 'the only stupid question is the one you don't ask!' - Nothing about language is or should be banned here!!


Although answering questions about the rules of grammar is not something I particularly enjoy, if a student needs help I do my best to see that he or she gets it. I�m sure most teachers do the same. What concerns me is that, if it is eventually decided that questions regarding grammar are off topic here, I hope there will be some provision made for redirecting grammar questions to the Help Center. This would be especially important for new members. In the meantime I hope this discussion will take a less personal form! I doubt there are very many who would wish to become the object of public scrutiny.

Meadowlark
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bud



Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 2111
Location: New Jersey, US

PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has always been a generic forum of all things English. If we took Dave's description for this forum literally (how to learn English), then nearly every thread in here would be off-topic.

We could say that you have to post grammar questions in the Help Center, but what for? In time, as students and teachers move on and new ones appear, it would devolve back to what it is now - as Lotus said, "The best English forum in the web. Period."

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!

BTW, I also have to say that I think your criticsm of Hela is unfair, Advoca. I think her English is very advanced, and considering her aim of becoming an interpreter, I think her study of the finer points of grammar will serve her well in the future.

Also, welcome to the forum, Meadowlark! You come across to me as a very talented and caring teacher. It's nice to see you in here.
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advoca



Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 422
Location: Beijing

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I do not mean this rudely, but Hela's written English often shows flaws.


That was my comment, Bud. I do not think that is a criticism. It is a comment, made as a teacher to a student.

But my point is, Hela seems to me to be more interested in learning English Grammar than Learning English (Which is Dave's designation for this Forum). In my view, detailed questions about grammar are best directed to the Help Section. I am certainly not competent to deal with the finer points of grammar, and I do not think you, Asterix, or many teachers contributing to this forum would claim to be grammar exoerts either (Am I wrong?)

I think grammar experts are available in the Help Section, and this Forum should stick to matters of Learning English as opposed to learning grammar.

I am sure there are excellent and experienced and qualified gramarians who would and do contribute to this section, but I fear that the majority of students would be bored and out of their depth with detailed discussions on the finer points of English grammar. My belief is that we should stick to the level of English that you, Bud, Asterix and people like you, can deal with. As you say, you (and most of us too) are native English speakers and not experts in English grammar. And most of the students using this forum are interested in learning English and not the specific and separate subject of grammar.
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bud



Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 2111
Location: New Jersey, US

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That was my comment, Bud. I do not think that is a criticism. It is a comment, made as a teacher to a student.


Okay, Advoca, I'm sorry for mischaracterizing that. But c'mon, even most of us native speakers have flaws in our usage.

...

As one who is no fan of advanced grammar, I find it surprising that you can so easily separate learning English from grammar. How can one learn English without it? (And don't you find it a bit ironic that I am defending grammar against you? Laughing )

I believe that there are many in here who are quite sharp about grammar... you would be one of them. Besides that, you don't have to be a guru to comment about a particular construction. There are other points that can be brought up that do not deal directly with the grammar.

Aren't half the questions in here something along the lines of: "Is this sentence correct?" Isn't that a grammar question? The description for this forum says that it is for talking about about how to learn English. Most of those "on-topic" questions go unanswered. Again I ask, why fiddle with a successful forum?

And finally, I am an avid reader of the morning newspaper. I'd say that half the articles do not interest me. I read the headline, maybe the first paragraph, and move on. Don't you think a student in here does the same? And I bet there are many who are very interested in the grammar questions.
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