Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[advoca]

Hi Bud,

You said; �I find it surprising that you (advoca) can so easily separate learning English from grammar. How can one learn English without it?�

The answer is No. You cannot learn English without it. BUT there is grammar and grammar and I do separate learning English from learning grammar.

As I understand it, there are two meanings to the word grammar:

1. Grammar is the ways that words can be put together in order to make sentences.

2. Grammar is the theory that is intended to explain the rules of a language.

I teach my students grammar in the sense of the ways that words can be put together in order to make sentences. I do not teach them the theory that explains the rules of language. In fact, I encourage them not to study this theory and tell them they do not need to study how to classify and analyze the elements of English language in order to learn English.

If a student says to me, �If a phrase is used with a single pronoun, is the form of the verb that follows it a bare infinitive or a present subjunctive?� I tell him or her that he or she need not bother to find out because they only need to know the answer if they are studying Grammar. I tell them that they can learn English and the ways that words can be put together in order to make sentences without learning how to analyze the language.

I do not teach them how to parse a sentence or explain whether the form of a verb that follows a phrase is a bare infinitive or a present subjunctive, but I do try and teach them how to put sentences together that are meaningful and grammatical, in other words, I try to teach practical English usage.

You are right when you say, �most of us native speakers have flaws in our usage.�

Oh, yes, indeedy. I certainly do, and I freely admit it. I struggle when it comes to sorting out lay, lie, and laid. If I knock on a door and someone says, �Who�s there?� I reply, �Me.� But I do try and keep the flaws to a minimum, and encourage my students to do the same.

So, may I start a thread about Grammar? Perhaps many teachers will join in, and students too. Come on everyone. Let�s have your views. Do you care about bare infinitives or present subjunctives? Do you think that learning grammar (in the sense of the theory of the rules) is necessary when learning English?

[ErwinR]

I think it all depends on the level of English you want to teach / learn. You can have pretty good conversations, either written or spoken, without ever having heard of bare infinitives etcetera, but when you want to be able to speak English as perfect as your own language, you have to know all the rules. That's why I still want to study some more English, although I'm confident that I can make myself clear to any English speaking person.

[bud]

Advoca, I'd never advise a student not to study something that interested them. If they thought it was furthering some specific goal, I'd point it out if I thought differently, though.

ErwinR, thanks for the comments. They are good points, and I agree that either approach can be effective, depending on what your English goal is.

[advoca]

Interesting points, Bud and ErwinR.

But ErwinR, there are 40 native English speaking teachers where I work, British, American, Canadian, Australian, and none of them (no, not one single one) has ever learned or studied grammar. Furthermore, I know many Chinese fluent English-speakers and none of them have ever studied grammar (grammar as my second definition).

My daughter speaks fluent Chinese (and I mean fluent) and she has never studied grammar, English or Chinese.

Interesting point, Bud. I agree. If they want to study Sanskrit or Medieval handwriting, or whatever, by all means let them, and if they want to study Grammar, let them. Yes, by all means encourage them. I would do so too. However, Grammar is a specialized subject and needs to be dealt with by specialist teachers. And the study should not be allowed to clash with others in the class or group, or interfere with with those learning to speak and write English as you and I learned English.

I would tell any of my students that they can learn English and the ways that words can be put together in order to make sentences without learning how to analyze the language.

[fiona ting]

hi Advoca,
I think that learning grammar is important when learning English. Maybe grammar is not important in speaking but it is important in writing. Because, grammatical errors will make the readers frustrated. I can admit that most of the english learners tend to use the grammar which sounds nice in their speaking and writing. BUT, it is wrong. Because, if we dont know the grammar rules, errors will always follow us. Sometimes when i speak English with my friends, i find that grammatical errors appear in their communication. Although i am not a good english speaker, i feel that to speak well and to write well do not mean that to speak fluently and write beautifully. In my opinion, i think that a person who can speak fleuently without grammatical error and a person who can write beautifully without grammatical error is really considered as having a good English. However, i know that in informal conversation, we will tend to use "broken" English (which means we ignore the grammar rules). It is because it makes our conversation go easy. I can conclude that learning grammar is really important when learning English.