Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[Meadowlark]

Hello again,

I'm here today because I hope what I have to say will make a difference. Whatever the outcome, I'll know I tried, and that is all any of us can do.

When I left this forum I expected to hear from a handful of students who wanted my help. I didn't expect the numerous letters from students and teachers who�ve shared their views and concerns about their experiences here. For each person who took the time to write to me there are undoubtedly many others who feel the same.

Although I appreciate the letters I've received from other teachers, what brings me here today is my concern for the students. This is their forum. I hope you will give serious consideration to what I�m about to say. I�m not asking you to listen to me. I�m asking you to listen to them.

What is the Learning English forum? It's a forum created for the benefit of students who need help with English.

What do the students who come to the Learning English forum have the right to expect? They have the right to expect a pleasant atmosphere where they can ask questions and receive friendly answers.

Does the Learning English forum serve any other purpose? Absolutely! Students come here with a respectful attitude. They've been taught to respect their teachers. The conduct of the teachers in this forum is as important, or perhaps even more important, than the answers given to the students� questions. Teachers here have an opportunity to teach much more than English. They have an opportunity to serve as role models. They have an opportunity to teach, through their own example, behaviors which exemplify the best of what it means to be men and women in today�s world. They have an opportunity to show young people that respect for others, good manners, tolerance, kindness and open-mindedness are traits worth emulating.

Unfortunately, there are some who don�t realize that by being allowed to volunteer to help students here they�ve been entrusted with more than English questions.

One student did such a good job of summarizing what the others had said that I asked if I could quote him anonymously. Here�s what he wrote: �Some teachers do not think about the students. They just think about their own pride. They correct other teacher�s answers and make rude remarks to them. This is not good because a student wants to look up to a teacher. When a teacher is not happy it makes the students feel uncomfortable. The bad behavior makes us lose faith with them. We think if they are real teachers they will not behave like this. If they are not real teachers they may give us wrong answers. This is a worry to us. Some students may not care about this, but many serious students leave and go to other websites or they ask questions in other places and come here only if they don�t get an answer.�

There's not much I can add to his letter other than to say that I decided to stop participating in this forum, not because I wasn�t up to defending myself, but because I didn�t want to stay in a place where �teacher� often means so little. Those who use students� forums for the gratification of their own egos are an embarrassment to the teaching profession. Most of you are caring, dedicated teachers who answer students� questions and quietly mind your own business, but when you stand by silently while others demean our profession you're letting the students down. Perhaps it's time all of us should ask ourselves what we should be teaching the students who come here to learn from us. They are, after all, the reason this place exists.

It's clear that the students want to know what the teachers think about this issue. Although I'll continue to check my messages for a while longer, if you'd like to reply to this post I hope you will do so publicly.

Best wishes to all,

Meadowlark

[advoca]

[asterix]

As far as I know nobody gets paid for helping students here. Many, if not most, are not teachers, but native English speakers. They do it for fun.
We get the message, Meadowlark; you are p i s s ed off because we did not all fall to our knees before your superior knowledge and gasp with admiration.
Get over it.
Try doing something for FUN yourself.

[Meadowlark]

Hi Advoca,

I'm perfectly calm.

I have no personal stake in what happens here and my letter was not an attempt to reopen a discussion about my own experience. As I said, I never expected to hear from so many students and teachers after I left, but as this seems to be important to many of them I thought it was worth sticking my neck out one more time to let their concerns be known. I'm not upset at all. I'm just doing what I believe is "the right thing to do".

Bluntly rejecting the validity of an answer that's been given with nothing but one's unsupported opinion is clearly wrong and I believe my objection to this has made a difference. However, habitually critiquing answers with a patronizingly superior attitude and using disrespectful language when addressing others is also inappropriate and the students and teachers who wrote to me consider this to be an on-going problem.

Advoca, I appreciate the time you've taken in your line-by-line response to my post, but I'm afraid you've missed the point. I can only ask that you keep in mind what I've said. Now that I've put this matter into your hands and into the hands of anyone else who may be interested, what happens from here on doesn't really concern me. I never intended to "stick around" this long, but every time I�ve thought I was done another letter has arrived.

I wish everyone here nothing but the best. As a friend commented recently, "Life is too short to take seriously."

Have fun! Be kind to each other!

Meadowlark

[Meadowlark]

Asterix - I love you too, babe!

[bud]

Meadowlark, I have a lot of adjectives to characterize your post, but I'll sum them all up with just one: BEAUTIFUL!

I have so much affection for this forum, and it grows through time. I look out at the world and I see so much hatred, so much need. I look at my own country and I see so much venom spewed with no second thoughts whatsoever. It is great solace to embrace the little beauties that we have in our lives.

For me, this is one of those little beauties. At it's core, the forum is blessed with bright, extremely motivated students who ask so many challenging questions. Then come the teachers and native-speakers, who all share a love of the language and an eagerness to help others. To top it all off, we have Dave Sperling who gives us the tools to communicate. How can it get any better than that for those of us who like to hang out in here?

A short time ago, Lotus wrote that this is the best English forum on the web. Since this is the only English site that I hang out in, I really had no idea. But it meant a lot to me to hear that. It made me feel proud that I play a small part in it. Or more accurately, it made me feel inspired.

Usually this forum runs well, but there have been instances with respondents acting disrespectfully to others. I have always felt regretful after I've been involved in one, because I do worry about how it affects the students - the ones involved in the thread and the lurkers, too. It is sad that Lotus's comment came in a message asking us all to do some soul-searching.

I'd like to see us all take Lotus's and Meadowlarks's cautions to heart. Why settle for the best English forum on the web? Why not strive for the English forum that will not be beat for many years to come?

Thanks for listening.

[advoca]

Hmm!

I cannot but help think that there is a lot in what you say, Asterix. and I hope Meadowlark has the stregth of character to take note.

Even so, pissed off or not, Meadowlark does have useful knowlege which could benefit this forum.

But it is fascinating the differences of opinion that are being expressed, though I am suprised at how seldom teachers here contribute to the Help section and remain exclusively loyal to the Learning English section. It raises the question: does the forum need separate sections for help on English?

And perhaps Dave ought to note this this passionate discussion and give thought to the Profile requirements for registrtation. It is a farce as it stands, because nobody need fill in one single detail and most leave it blank. We know only in a few cases where members come from, their nationality or what their status is; student, teacher or native English speaker. We do not even know whether members are male or female, and certainly do not know what nationality they are. Surely such information is important? A student is entitled to know the status of the person who is giving advice.

[Meadowlark]

Advoca - Thanks for the compliment. I've taken note, as has everyone else.

Bud - Your strength of character is admirable. The students who come here are lucky to have you.

Students - I'll no longer be checking messages here so please use email or post on English Page or English Forums.

Bye all! It's been interesting.

Meadowlark

[bud]

[advoca]

Almost anything is possile in the internet.

But is what you mention a problem?

[bud]

It's hard to be sure, but I see a lot of things from this trio that make me think... "Huh?"

After several "Huh's," it gets a person to thinking.

So yes, that's what I think is happening in here.

[advoca]

If such a case exists, Bud, it seems harmless to me. Why do you feel this is an abuse of trust?

I have seen several examples of questions posted by students in this forum that have been posted in other forums under different names (complex questions with identical wording). But again so what?

[bud]

You're saying that a student needs to know such things as nationality, sex, and whether teacher or student. But yet one person can be two teachers and a student in here? Wouldn't that person have to falsify at least one of those "important" profiles? It doesn't make sense.

Would you say that there would be no problem with a teacher planting a fake student in their classroom? For what legitimate purpose?

And please - what someone calls himself or herself in a different forum is irrelevant.

[Boy Rates]

Hear, hear, Bud! Well said!

[advoca]

Congratulations, Boy Rates. Your sudden burst into this forum with no other purpose than to destroy me has been completely successful. Well done.

Et tu, Bud. You have joined in and supported this vituperative attack. Thanks.

I shall bow out and never again participate in or contribute to this forum.