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Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums "The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
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Boy Rates
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 36
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Asterix,
OK I�ll answer your questions because it gives me the chance to make a few points very clear.
asterix wrote: |
Has it occurred to you that more than one person might use the same computer, Roy? Or Boy? |
On the surface this sounds like a valid point, but when you think about it there would have been four or more people using the same computer, three of whom would have had to use it simultaneously in order to have conversations with each other in the same ESL forum during the same period of time. The fourth used the same computer to lurk in the same forum for a year. Oh, and two of them live in Wales while the other two live in Beijing, but they still managed to get together to use the same computer almost daily.
I don't think so!
asterix wrote: |
In any event, what does it matter if Advoca is using more than one handle? This is the internet. That's what people do. |
Sure, there are plenty of places where no one cares if someone uses multiple identities to play several roles including various "teachers" and a student, but not all places on the internet are alike. In particular, not all forums are alike. The ones that aspire to be more than message boards for the general public, especially those with a specific educational goal, have rules designed to protect the integrity of the forum. If a person pretends to be several different people, for whatever reason, they're lucky to get a warning. They�re usually just banned, because there is rarely a defensible reason for using multiple identities in this type of setting. If you don't believe me, go ask moderators at other ESL/EFL forums what their rules are. I have.
Selfishly attempting to manipulate others for your own gratification is wrong in any situation. In a forum like this, which has been created for the benefit of students who come here for help, it�s unforgivable. It�s deceptive. It�s destructive. It�s grossly unfair to the students and other members and I�m amazed it�s been allowed to go on for so long. Roy Bates has at times been a member of many similar forums and this is the ONLY one in which he has ever successfully established himself and his multiple identities as legitimate members.
asterix wrote: |
I would be very surprised if the moderators had time to waste on such a pointless task as trying to see if any of the people on here were logging on from the same URL. They have too many complaints to handle as it is. |
Who said mods should be monitoring members� IP addresses? That would be a ridiculous waste of time and an unnecessary invasion of privacy.
I don�t know why there aren�t more mods here and I don�t know how much support there is for the one or two (?) who are doing the job. I do know that in most forums like this the role the moderators play is quite different from what it is here. There are at least four or five mods in addition to an owner/administrator who makes his or her presence known, if not daily, then at least once a week. The mods read all the new posts. They�ve been asked to become mods because they participate heavily in the forums and are able to foster a positive atmosphere while keeping an eye on things. They�re familiar with the personalities of the regulars so it�s very easy for them to blow the whistle on TROLLS!
Several members here have long suspected that the person calling himself Advoca was using more than one identity. In a typical forum this would have been dealt with long ago.
Asked and answered!  |
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e123
Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 7 Location: Cardiff, UK
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Quoted by Boy Rates:
A troll is a person who posts rude or offensive messages to disrupt discussion or to upset its participants. Kwak Keum-joo, a psychology professor at Seoul National University who has studied the issue, said people who post malicious remarks often get hooked on the habit of seeing others respond to their inflammatory remarks. |
I cannot help feeling that this describes Boy Rates perfectly. Since he joined this forum on March 13 he has posted 31 times (an average of 6.2 posts per day!). Each one of his posts has been rude or offensive. It would seem to me that he is the one who is the perfect example of a troll, and he is one who is hooked on seeing others respond to his inflammatory remarks.
For heaven�s sake, Boy Rates, stop your hate filled vendetta. I think we have all had enough. It is not Advoca who is playing it rough. He has not posted since he bowed out. You, on the other hand, have only posted hate-filled comments since you joined five days ago. That is what I call really playing it rough. |
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Boy Rates
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 36
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:35 am Post subject: |
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Roy Bates = E123 = Advoca = Clonc = Blossom = ONE UGLY TROLL
Ignore the troll. |
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sentient
Joined: 18 Mar 2006 Posts: 4
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pugachevV
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 2295
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: |
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All very lovely, especially the intercrural thingamy, I guess, but are we forgetting that it's really a forum to help foreign people learn English? |
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sentient
Joined: 18 Mar 2006 Posts: 4
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Yes, it is. But with integrity. |
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e123
Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 7 Location: Cardiff, UK
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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So am I, Sentient. In spite of the allegations by Boy Rates.
Joan Nelson |
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pugachevV
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 2295
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Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: |
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I suggest that integrity has nothing to do with learning English. You can learn very good English from a complete scoundrel.
If it amuses some small mind to try to disrupt the forum, you can ignore his/her posts. |
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Boy Rates
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 36
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:21 pm Post subject: Serious answers to serious questions |
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Hello.
Thank you for taking the time to read this. For your benefit and for the benefit of others who use this forum, I hope you will give it serious consideration.
I'm sure everyone agrees that the issue of Roy Bates and his actions as a member of this forum needs to be wrapped up and laid to rest. It will be a happy day when, as Philo said, the �dust settles� and this place begins to grow and flourish as it should have been doing all along.
PugachevV said
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I suggest that integrity has nothing to do with learning English. You can learn very good English from a complete scoundrel. If it amuses some small mind to try to disrupt the forum, you can ignore his/her posts. |
There�s no question that our "Boy" has been disruptive, but I doubt anyone finds this situation less amusing than he does. There several reasons why Boy's first act was to give Advoca a taste of his own medicine. The primary reason was to spare Roy Bates and the members of this forum the unpleasantness of having certain facts made public. It was hoped that Bates would realize this and, in his own words, �bow out and never again participate in or contribute to this forum.�
However, as it's clear Bates intends to continue to try to manipulate this forum for his own advantage the only thing to do now is to give you the answers you deserve.
The members of this forum have been tricked and lied to. Some of you have given generously of your time, believing you were helping a student when in fact you were being used by Roy Bates for his own gratification and entertainment. At times some of you tolerated unpleasant comments made by a person you thought was your colleague.
It's time for the truth to be told about the man you accepted as Advoca, the man you believed was Clonc, the female student you addressed as Blossom and the new member you've been asked to believe is a woman named Joan Nelson.
Roy Bates is a man who grew up in the UK and who now lives in Beijing. His primary identity in this forum was Advoca. For many months he also posted under two additional identities. One of these was Clonc. Roy Bates wanted us to believe Clonc was a teacher living in Wales, but Clonc�s posts came from Beijing, from the same computer as Advoca�s. Bates had another identity he called Blossom, a female student living in Beijing. There is absolutely no doubt that these three identities belong to the same person. That person is Roy Bates.
Bates created a fourth identity, E123, the day after his Advoca identity announced he was leaving this forum. He wanted you to believe E123 was a woman teacher named Joan Nelson who lived in Wales. Bates hoped to be able to use E123 to recover his position here. He evidently thought no one would discover that the posts of a person supposedly living in Wales were coming from Beijing. He was wrong.
Roy Bates is Advoca. Roy Bates is Clonc. Roy Bates is Blossom. Roy Bates is E123.
Those who feel they need more than my word about Bates� identities will find documentation in the following locations:
1. Roy Bates as Advoca:
http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?t=3918
Advoca signs his post �Roy Bates�.
http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhatDoYouKnowAboutChina/bzqq/Post.htm
Roy Bates posts first. Several posts later, Advoca explains who Bates is.
2. Roy Bates as Clonc:
Although Clonc�s profile in this forum says he lives in the UK, at English Forums he says he lives in Beijing.
http://www.englishforums.com/English/PantsOrAPairOfPants/cvzpn/Post.htm (see Clonc�s profile)
- and Wales!
http://www.englishforums.com/English/Chirp/cvxng/Post.htm
Quote: |
The Robins in my Welsh garden say, "twiddle-oo twiddle" I believe they were educated at Harrow.(Or perhaps Llandaff Cathedral School?)
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At Word Origins it�s Advoca who now lives in Wales.
http://p098.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1.showMessage?topicID=13512.topic
Quote: |
Outside Cardiff (Wales) there is a hill on the road to Cowbridge called The Crack. It is referred to locally as Tumble-down-*beep*. Does anybody know how the hill became named The Crack, and why and how did the name Tumble-down-*beep* get associated? |
And at Word Origins Roy Bates (Advoca) also tells us he lived in Wales as a child.
http://p098.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1.showMessage?topicID=13429.topic
Quote: |
When I was a young lad in Britain I often went snogging with a girl. It certainly did not involve the insertion of a tongue (known as a French kiss). But it did involve cuddling and kissing and perhaps a little bit of naughty fondling of knees, or even perhaps *beep*. It is what my American friends called petting and the fondling was restricted to above the waist and usually outside the clothes. |
3. Roy Bates as E123 (aka Joan Nelson):
E123 says she lives in Cardiff, Wales, but her computer resides in Beijing.
E123 was created the day Bates aka Advoca announced his intention to leave.
Advoca�s post on Word Origins asks about the name residents of Cardiff have given to a local hill.
http://p098.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1.showMessage?topicID=13512.topic
4. Roy Bates as Blossom:
Bates created Blossom for a special purpose in this forum only, so there are no links to show the connection between them. This doesn�t mean there is no proof. It will take another post to explain how Bates used his Blossom identity to ask questions he wished to answer or to have others answer. Bates' use of Blossom reveals the lengths to which he was willing to go to satisfy his needs.
The big question on many people's minds seems to be, "Why does it matter that Roy Bates used multiple identities?"
If you care about the way you and others are treated here please read on.
Bates used multiple identities to make his main identity (Advoca) seem more important by creating the impression that his opinions were shared by others. He also used multiple identities to give himself the opportunity to answer questions and make comments on topics he particularly enjoyed.
Let�s start by taking a look at how Bates used Advoca and Clonc:
Bates used Clonc primarily to support his main identity, Advoca. Clonc�s comments often attempted to discourage others from criticizing Advoca. As Clonc, Bates was able to praise Advoca. At other times he used Advoca to praise Clonc. Bates wanted you to believe that Clonc and Advoca were colleagues who had a tremendous amount of respect for each other. Bates wanted you to admire Advoca the way Clonc did. He wanted you to know that if you challenged anything either one of them said you were likely to find yourself outnumbered. The fact is that Advoca and Clonc were not colleagues. They were the manipulative puppets of a man with an insatiable need to control those around him.
It would be fair to say that Roy Bates should not be blamed for his actions. He suffers from a personality disorder which causes him to continually crave praise, compliments and deference. This craving is not something he can control. He feels a constant need to prove that everything he does is better than that which others can do. People like Bates are driven to use others to get what they want. Their inability to feel empathy makes them blind to what this might cost the other person. Nothing is ever perfect enough to satisfy them, so are they are constantly criticizing, to the point of verbal abuse and insult. They frequently use sarcasm because it makes them feel witty. They�re extremely sensitive to personal criticism and, at the same time, extremely critical of other people. They're unable to tolerate the least disagreement. They�ll disparage anyone for their own self-justification, and then expect everything to proceed as if nothing had occurred. People like Bates are habitually cruel in little ways because the effort required to maintain their fantasy of a perfect self demands all their attention making them oblivious to injuries they inflict on others.
In this forum Bates made a practice of reading students� posts and the answers they�d been given. When he found one that suited his purpose he�d use Advoca, Clonc, or both to criticize it with a �holier than thou� attitude. If he was unable to find something to correct or criticize he would look for opportunities to add additional information. This was often done in a way that made it seem that the person who�d given the original answer had not been as thorough as he or she might have been. In this situation Bates often had Advoca and Clonc congratulate each other for supplying the �valuable� additional information. I�m sure regular members are familiar with the �Hear hear (Advoca or Clonc)!� comment Bates often utilized to have one identity admire the other.
Although it was largely out of his control, Bates� behavior was selfish and unfair. His superior attitude implied that no answer was acceptable until he approved or disapproved it. He used the term �teacher� as a kind of weapon. Although it is very doubtful that he possesses a traditional teaching degree, he frequently called attention to the fact that he was a �teacher�. He asserted that only those who were �teachers� were truly qualified to answer students� questions and he authoritatively demanded that non-teachers not presume to give answers as if they were teachers.
Many a new volunteer, teacher or not, had the unpleasant experience of being subjected to his opinion, which was typically preceded by an insincere request for permission to do so. The lack of a question mark at the end of statements such as �For the benefit of the students may I, as a teacher, point out . . .� revealed the fact that this was not a true question, but a condescending statement disguised as �manners�. Bates often used an apology in the same way - �I hope you do not mind me, as a teacher, pointing this out�.
At times Bates combined insult with admonishment: �Please, please, by all means teach students how they speak in New Jersey (New Joisy? And sorta funny and kinda strange) but do not teach them to write such words unless they are quoting somebody speaking in this slovenly way. Please, please, let's have no one using slovenly spoken words when writing.� And when he was feeling particularly sure of himself he was likely to forget his manners altogether: �No. That is not correct!� Interestingly, at these times, he was usually proven wrong, either wholly or partially.
Being proven wrong was something Bates had to endure quite frequently on other ESL/EFL websites. He often argued his point incessantly until others told him to stop or simply ignored him. As he was never able to successfully incorporate a supporting identity such as Clonc, he inevitably stopped posting. He could afford to leave these opportunities behind because he had somewhere else to go for the satisfaction of his narcissistic needs. He had this forum.
Every student or teacher/volunteer helper who was subjected to criticism by what appeared to be two individual teachers was in fact the victim of one man with a compulsive need to prove his superiority. That man is Roy Bates.
There is more that needs to be said about the other identities used by Bates. However, this post is already too long so the rest will have to wait for a day or two.
The MANY students and teacher/volunteer helpers who left this forum because of Bates� treatment are not here to speak for themselves. While some of the regular members were upset by the things Bates was doing and a few were concerned enough to speak out, most seem to have been unaware of the effect Bates� actions were having on individual students and volunteers and on the health of this forum in a general sense. Perhaps this is due to the fact that once they'd become accustomed to the presence of the identities used by Bates they had no reason to following their posts the way he followed theirs.
Whatever the reason, for now, it's important to understand that, while Boy Rates' actions have not earned him a great deal of respect, he agreed to perform a task for the benefit of those who come here eager to learn and for those who wish to welcome them with smiles and valuable knowledge of the English language in all its forms and contexts: formal, informal, in business, in school, as friends around the globe, and as ambassadors to the future of our world.
He agreed to take on a task that was bound to make him unpopular because he believes you care about these things too. Whatever you may think of the �Boy�, I hope you will take a moment to consider the information you've been given so far. I also hope you will want to give some thought to how you would answer the following four questions:
Would you consider using multiple identities to manipulate students and volunteer teacher/helpers?
Would you feel justified in criticizing or complimenting a large number of posts made by others?
Do you feel Roy Bates violated your trust?
Do you feel Roy Bates abused this forum?
Although you won't be asked to go on record, your answers to these questions and what you choose to do from now on will have a great impact on the future of this forum.
Thank you. |
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pugachevV
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 2295
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Capital, Holmes! |
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Boy Rates
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 36
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Pugachev! I always knew you were a comrade.
[I agree that we often need to remember that life's too short to take seriously, but I guess I still feel that when someone is hurting so many people it should be taken seriously. ]
Please, everyone - it's very important that the many ways Roy Bates abused this forum are recognized so this will not be allowed to happen again!
Sentient has pointed out something extremely important! [Thank you Sentient!] He has shown us that there are many times when Bates got his identities mixed up.
In the second link in the quote below, Bates made two errors. First he used his Blossom identity to answer a question which was clearly intended to be posted as Advoca, then he unknowingly confirmed his error by using his Advoca identity to apologize for a typo he'd made while using the Blossom identity!
Here's another Advoca post Bates made as Blossom:
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/student/viewtopic.php?p=35044&highlight=#35044
How do the forum members who had hours of their time wasted answering questions posted by Bates posing as Blossom feel about having been used in this way?
Do any of you mind that Bates got his kicks by using Blossom to elicit your answers to questions about "lap dancing", "spreading your legs wide", "catching crabs", and dozens of similar topics?
Roy Bates regarded the people who participated in this forum as little more than toys to be played with. Using Clonc as a support for Advoca he quietly drove out anyone he percieved as a potential threat to the personal playground he'd so deviously established.
Please don't underestimate the damage Bates has done here.
Think about the way he took what he wanted without the least regard for the rights of others.
Think about the many teachers and students he disliked who are no longer here. The loss of that which they may have contributed to those who come here for the learning/teaching of English is immeasurable.
Think about it and please don't let it happen again.
Last edited by Boy Rates on Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Boy Rates
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 36
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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In Bates' own words:
advoca wrote: |
We do not even know whether members are male or female, and certainly do not know what nationality they are. Surely such information is important? A student is entitled to know the status of the person who is giving advice. |
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