Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[fw]

Hello everyone.

I understand Sentence 1 below is grammatically correct and makes sense.
Is Sentence 2 grammatically correct and does it make sense?

1. He is not a poet, nor is he a philosopher.
2. He is not a poet, nor is he a philosopher, either.

Best regards,
Fw

[Mister Micawber]

No, the either, if grammatical, is redundant and poor style; I have heard this form spoken, however.

[alan.es]

Neither is the correct grammatical form if you want to use it - just a matter of style or emphasis. 'Either' in this sentence is grammatically incorrect because the verb 'is' is affirmative in the second half of the complex sentence. The second comma is incorrect. The first comma is better as a semi-colon or in modern useage a hyphen.

He is not a poet ; nor is he a philosopher neither.

He is not a poet - nor is he a philosopher neither.

It could be :

He is neither poet nor philosopher.

or :

He isn't either a poet or a philosopher.

The second alternative is much more frequently used in spoken, colloquial English. Very few native English speakers now use 'nor' in any sentence. Though grammatically correct it is not being used.

Each of the above alternatives mean exactly the same and will be used by different speakers/writers depending on their personal style and knowledge and use of grammar.

Except in exams - when you have to give the answer your teacher wants - it isn't really very important.

[Mister Micawber]

.

[alan.es]

yes, I am

Nor neither is he a philosopher! - yes, that's acceptable to me and is used.

Nor either is he a philosopher - maybe grammatically correct, don't really know - I haven't heard it or seen it this way.

My point is that :

'He isn't either a poet or philosopher' is the most commonly used way of saying it.

So I would suggest that any student wanting to use similar expressions concentrates on using this method of a negative verb with 'either....or'.

The majority of English people whom I speak to rarely use ' neither...nor' nowadays. If they do use 'neither' they incorrectly combine it with 'or'.

I am suggesting very strongly that spending a lot of time and study on learning how to use 'neither---nor' is not really worth the effort.

---- but obviously that is a personal opinion. heretical, maybe??

[lotus]

Hi all,

Here was my response in another forum - along with others.

http://www.englishpage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6844

It's interesting how eveyone has a slightly different viewpoint on something that's rarely used (in whole).


--lotus

[Mister Micawber]

[alan.es]

As lotus indicated from the englishpage forum there are different opinions about this grammatical point. My opinion is that when that happens it's become a discusion point for grammarians and not really worth asking students to make the fine distinctions except for examinations.

I too use 'neither...nor' and so do some of my friends of the same age. I also use ' whom' and the construction 'the majority of people to whom I speak' when I feel like being precise. However I rarely hear or see them these days. English changes and has a slightly different grammar as time goes by.

I accept ' nor neither is he a philosopher' as a "double negative?" because isn't it a different form of 'he is neither a poet nor a philosopher' - also a "double negative?".

[Mister Micawber]

.
I agree about the fine points, Alan. I suppose it is because I have a lot of students preparing for language profiency tests-- TOEIC, TOEFL, IELTS, Eiken STEP-- that I feel the need to keep such points clear and current in the students' minds. They will soon enough learn that 'anything goes' if they ever get a chance to actually communicate in an English-speaking culture.


As for the double negative:

'nor neither is he a philosopher' includes a double negative because it is a single clause, with a single complement, containing a redundant negative coordinating conjunction.

'he is neither a poet nor a philosopher' does not include a double negative; rather, it uses the correlative pair of conjunctions neither... nor, which coordinates the compound noun complements.

Cheers,
MM
.
_________________
"I really do not know that anything has ever been more exciting than diagramming sentences." � Gertrude Stein
...............
Canadian-American who teaches English for a living at Mr Micawber's

[alan.es]

I'll take your word for that!!