Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[ieltsinsider]

FP - It's not fair to say that Arabs are united in wanting to destroy Israel. Most Arabs are not that extreme and are pragmatic people. Any international conference would be fair, in my opinion, since so many views would be represented - Israel, the US, Europeans, Russians, Arabs.

To be fair, Israel and Hezbollah have been going for each other for years - sometimes Israel kicks things off, sometimes (e.g. most recently) Hezbollah. Look at how Israel broke he ceasefire a few days ago. Amazingly, Hezbollah didn't respond, for once. They're as bad as each other - like little kids!

I agree with FP about the 'war crimes' thing. Again, I blame the media. "Oh, let's give everything a cool, catchy title!" War is a nasty business and there will always be innocents killed and injured. It's a war crime if non-combatants are specifically targetted. There's no proof that Isral did this (but plenty of proof that Hezbollah did).

Lebanon doesn't have all the other Arab countries to back her up. Some of them dislike Lebanon because it is (trying to be) a multicultural society. As I said before, Arab countries are not united.

[flying_pig319]

[ieltsinsider]

Arab governments are not united over Israel. If they HAD TO choose, yes, they would almost certainly choose to support Lebanon over Israel, but most Arab governments have simply decided NOT to choose.

[k.m.m]

Israel did not "take" the land, Arabs are still welcome to live there, will full civil rights. Also, if the Jews had been welcomed by the world in that area, Israel may not have had to have been created in the first place<<<Thanks flying_pig319,I am glad that we agree in most points., for this point as long as the Arabs have TON of land , they don�t need to go for living in Palastine , Arabs are more than 200 M so this small land cant fit for this numbers!!, what I am concerned is the Palastinians who now live a way from their original land , farms , mosques, churches, villages, to come back and to create their own state side by side with Israel as per the united nation resolutions and world demands..


These "refugees" as they are so misleadingly called, chose to leave Israel themselves because their political views state that Israel should not have been created, and the Jews are horrible people. THEY took themselves out of the picture out of disgust with Israel and the Jews<<< still the picture not clear ..those Palestinians refugees still have no homes, still suffering without country ,every Arab country are refusing to give them nationality because they have homes ,farms which have been taken by Israel, waiting to return. No, one ever chooses to leave his house, farm, etc and live in very bad situation unless others by force removed.


Anyone can see that "land for peace" is NOT peace. If you all really wanted peace, you wouldn't require land to get it. Israel has agreed (stupidly, perhaps because of the US) to these trades many times, and there has always been some loophole found (otherwise there would be no more landforpeace trades, since there would be peace)<<<
land for peace or peace for land ,"Road MAP" as a name has no meaning , in my point of you , the most important thing is the honestly on negotiations and clear lines from both sides , �2 states for 2 nations �this is what the world want..

.. , Fine, some escaped, but if the current Arab government at that time had had their way, this would not be the case. <<<you are correct during that time all Arab countries were occupied /colonized by whether England or France, Italy even Palestine its self was occupied by the British �so not only the Jews were escaped during the colonized period but also so many Arabs from different countries escaped and immigrants to South America and other countries..

WHOA! Hold on there-- you think Israel is responsible for the growth of a group which wants to exterminate them??!! You think Israel should help the Palestinians, the ones who bomb Israeli schoolbusses every day??!! You say Israel should "not just bomb their houses"? What about Hezbollah? Maybe THEY should talk about this in a civilized manner instead of just bombing. If Hezbollah stopped, Israel would stop. If Israel stopped, Hezbollah would continue. That's why it's an impossible situation. Case closed<<< No , it is not impossible situation ..if both partes want really to solve it , please read what I mentioned before , Yes Israel is responsible in growth of Hamas or any radical group , not by giving them Money or helping them in election but by not helping the Palestinians Authority to solve the problems and continue negotionations , the language that�s Israel deal with the matter is unfortunately is bombing as we see on the news every day ...a gaine Hezbullah is not Palastineans ...what is hezbullah do with palastine ...


Why do you think Israel did that in the first place??!!! Israel's only responding to attacks, not creating them. If Israel stopped, Hezbollah would continue. If Hezbollah stopped, Israel would as well. It's NOT equal in the way you're suggesting <<< I don�t want to mix between Palestinians and Hezbullah �my stand was clear on the first day as you remember , we are talking about the Palestinians only �..Hizbullah and Lebanon , has nothing at all to do for the negotiations between Palestinians Authority and Israel , nothing at all ..


I already stated that I think the Jews and Arabs are both equally entitled to the land. You don't need to convince me.<<< thanks ..


But I thought Mecca was the holy Arab place? Or Medina? Why do you insist on having ALL of your places, when the Jews just want one?<<< Jerusalem is not only for Muslim and Jews , it is also for Christians, as you know it has all the three religions holy places , I think it should be an International city for all the three religions may be four or five years under Palestinian state(Arab muslim and Arab chrestians ) and other four or five years under Israel state(Jews). I think that�s why they leave it till the end of negotiation.


thank you F.P. for understanding ...

K.M.M.

[k.m.m]

[beancurdturtle]

flying_pig319,

If you have gained your status of being an expert (worthy of educating everyone here) on the Middle East from Zionist sources like www.middleeastfacts.com and www.simpletoremember.com then I'm not surprised that you have given a highly biased interpretation of the situation.

I don't doubt your good intentions, but I do question the source for your strong bias and insistence of Israeli innocence and/or justification for their war against Lebanon. Israel invades Lebanon and kills thousands of civilian women and children, and they are justified because Jews have been persecuted for centuries and Hezbollah took two Israeli soldiers prisoner?

Jews do not have a monopoly on persecution, are you aware that the infamous Inquisition was an agenda of genocide perpetrated often on both Jew and Muslim? Are you aware that there are thousands of Lebanese in Israeli prisons being held with as little information and justification as the U.S. uses to hold prisoners in Guantanamo?

I would not say anyone, anywhere is right in conducting war. But I would say, if you hold yourself out as an expert on a subject, you should learn to be more objective and balanced in your analysis. Highly biased opinion positioned as objective fact is Fox News' specialty - and even they aren't very convincing any more.

Israel's occupation of Lebanon many years ago is the genesis for the birth of Hezbollah. Just as the U.S. occupation of Iraq is the genesis for the resurgence of militant Islamic activity.
_________________
Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss

[flying_pig319]

[beancurdturtle]

I'm going to answer a few of your comments starting with the last. You say "It's clear that you do not have a very good view of me (as a person or a political thinker, if those are different), and that confuses and saddens me..." - this is very far from true. I never attacked you or your thinking. What I did is question your opinion - which you presented as fact. More importantly I questioned the objectivity of your opinion.

What's actually clear to me is that you are an intelligent person with good writing skills, and you seem to be a caring person. These are valuable and powerful assets and I commend you for using them. However, I don't think it's appropriate to use these skills to write articles positioned as fact when the basis for your opinion is information "most likely to have the pro-Israel statistics I was looking for."

I know that war will continue to happen. Primarily because many people are unwilling to look past the bias and discrimination that have learned, sometimes through generations. This bias and discrimination is what militant Islamic organizations use to justify their actions. It is also the basis for your statement "As for 'Highly biased opinion positioned as objective fact', it's only opinion because the world isn't smart enough to have realized it yet." If it's your opinion against the world - there's a very good chance that there is imbalance in your opinion.

I've walked side by side, many times, with friends both Jewish and Islamic, in several anti war demonstrations since early 2003. So let me be fair and say, I am not educating here, I am stating my opinion, which has a bias. My opinion is skewed towards understanding, acceptance, and peace.

If you are willing to say that your article is opinion based on selective fact, and not on objective educational article, then you will be one step towards understanding and acceptance - and one step away from bias. And perhaps the entire world would be a tiny shift further away from needless war.
_________________
Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss

[flying_pig319]

[beancurdturtle]

[flying_pig319]

[beancurdturtle]

You don't see what I was saying. You - time after time - read between the lines and add things I didn't say, and ignore the very literal things I did say. In doing so you demonstrate the danger of holding a biased opinion - you can't just take my words literally because they are colored by the filter of your bias.

I didn't say you were wrong to post your biased commentary. I said you shouldn't profess to be an expert and educator, "if I didn't consider myself an expert on the subject, I wouldn't have taken it upon myself to educate the people of Dave's ESL Cafe!" and publish Zionist commentary without explaining your bias. Your first time reader, who doesn't know your bias and knows nothing of the facts, might read your commentary and believe it was objective and unbiased. They may wrongly believe the opinion they glean from your commentary to be balanced truth - this perpetuates misunderstanding.

I didn't say it's necessarily wrong to have a bias. I didn't say you have to tell the world you are wrong. I did not say your view is necessarily wrong - I also know that you do not believe you are wrong. I said that it is only fair to disclose your bias when you publish an article positioned as being educational. It's like, when publishing statistics, you should disclose a percentage margin of error.

I understand that your "first post WAS intended to be fact," it was skewed fact. It was clearly, to anyone who knows both sides of the long history, Zionist commentary. Again, there's nothing wrong with publishing it if you help your readers understanding by providing them context - by disclosing your bias. Biased viewpoints can be very educational when the reader knows the context of the article. They can also be very misleading when presented as objective truth.

Understand, I do not dislike you, I do not necessarily dislike your opinion. I can see you are intelligent, passionate, and a good writer - three things I admire very much. When your readers understand your experience and viewpoints, they can connect with your writing and understand it at a deeper level. Keep up the good work.
_________________
Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss

[asterix]

Biased is a subjective word - do you think your own opinion is not biased?

[beancurdturtle]

[flying_pig319]