Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[gloria_taipei]

I have submitted a dialog before and now I hope anyone here can help me with more dialogs I wrote.

I work for a non-profit educational foundation in Taiwan and my job is to teach elementary school students English, plus recently I have been assigned to write our own textbooks. My boss wants our textbooks to be used freely by anyone who wants to teach children in our way; therefore, we can't use anything that's copyrighted.

Since my boss has such great faith in me, I'll try my best to make sure what I write is good English. That's why I'm here with more dialogs. Your help would be greatly appreciated and (God/Buddhas) bless you. (p.s. We're a Buddhism-based organization.)

-----------------------------
Dialog 1
Peter: Good morning, Teacher Nina.
Teacher Nina: Good morning, Peter. How are you?
Peter: I am fine. Thank you. And you?
Teacher Nina: I am great. Thank you.

(I know Americans don't say "Teacher xxx." However, since we want our children to have respect for teachers and saying Ms. Nina (or her surname) sounds strange to us Chinese, I'd still like to keep it that way.)

--------------------------------------------
Dialog 2
Mr. Lin: Good afternoon, Ms. Chen.
Ms. Chen: Good afternoon, Mr. Lin.
Mr. Lin: Are you OK? You don�t look well.
Ms. Chen: I feel sick.

------------------------------------
Dialog 3
Teacher Nina: Time for class, everyone. Please come inside in ten seconds.
Students: Yes, Ma�am

-------------------------------------
Dialog 4
Teacher Nina: Class leader, please count down from ten to zero.
Class Leader: Ten-Nine-Eight-Seven-Six-Five-Four-Three-Two-One-Zero. Time�s up.

-------------------------------------
Dialog 5
Teacher Nina: Sit up straight. Close your eyes. Put your hands together. Chant the name of Buddha for five minutes.
Students: Amitabha-Amitabha-Amitabha�

--------------------------------------
Dialog 6
Teacher Charlene: Everybody, stand up, please. Put your hands together. Make three bows to the Buddha. Chant the name of Buddha ten times.
Students: Amitabha- Amitabha- Amitabha- Amitabha- Amitabha- Amitabha- Amitabha- Amitabha- Amitabha- Amitabha.
Teacher Charlene: Sit down, please.
Students: Thank you, Ma�am.

-----------------------------------
That's it so far. I hope it's not too much to read at a time.
Thank you for reading this.

[Mister Micawber]

.

[CP]

Besides saying, "Sit down, please" to the class, you can also use these:

"Class, [please] be seated."

"Everyone be seated [, please]."

"[Please] Take your seats."

"You may be seated [now]."

In addition to saying, "Everybody, stand up, please," you can say:

"Everyone on your feet [, please]."

"All rise."

"Everyone stand."
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[lotus]

Hi Gloria,

In a Chinese or parochial school environment in the United States, the children often address the teachers by their first or last name depending on the teacher's age or marital status. Of course, that's not always known. The teachers usually let the children know how to address them.

In a pre-school or kindergarten environment, there are usually two teachers in the classroom. One is the primary teacher, the other an assistant. Or, the older one will teach the older children, the younger one the younger children. The younger teacher may be unmarried and just beginning to learn how to teach. She is often addressed as "Miss" using her first name. The senior teacher is addressed by her last name using "Mrs." Often, in the more informal early years, the children will address the married teacher as "Miss" with her last name, even though it is improper for adults.

The children never say Ms. (probably because it is too hard to say and such ambiguous distinctions are confusing to children).

If the teachers are nuns, they are addressed by their proper titles, Sister or Mother.

The Chinese culture does say "Chun Seen San" or "Chun Lo See" which is "Chun teacher" in literal translation. That's equivalent to saying "teacher Chun." However, as Mr. Micawber pointed out, we do not address teachers as "teacher Chun" in the English language culture. We use their proper titles instead.

But such convention and usage may not be applicable in the Chinese culture. Cultural preservation may necessitate the use of "teacher Chun" in China (or Taiwan), because "Chun Lo See" really does mean teacher Chun (surname). It has the same tone and resonance as saying professor Chun. Since the most respectful way to address a teacher in China (or Taiwan) is to say "Chun Lo See", it may be that the most appropriate way to address that teacher in English is to say "teacher Chun."


--lotus

[ad-miral]

I think the salutation: "Mrs." (Misses) is better than "teacher"
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love

[CP]

The trouble with addressing a teacher as "Mrs." is that native speakers do not do that.

I have to agree with Mr. Micawber. You should not have the children address the teacher as "Teacher Smith," since that would be wrong in the U.K. and U.S.A. You never know when a student will go somewhere else, taking with him or her speaking habits learned at home.

You can say, "Miss / Ms. / Mrs. Smith," or "Ma'am," but not just "Mrs." when addressing a female teacher.

Likewise, if the teacher is male, you can say, "Mr. Smith," or "Sir," but not just "Mr." when addressing him.
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[Mister Micawber]

.

[lotus]

Hi,

The problem is, in fact, with the salutation. There are no English titles which indicate one is an educational professional other than Dr. or Professor. The salutation and title "teacher" (Lo See) in Chinese indicates one's respect and acknowledgement of another who mentors, teaches, professes and who otherwise is known as a master of education. There is no greater respect.

When one says Mr., Mrs. or Miss, when translated in Chinese, it becomes mostly a salutation between colleagues, or from a youngster to a senior. It has no connotation of a teacher/student relationship and the respect it infers. This is why it sounds awkward in the Chinese culture.

Having said that, I think CP is correct in that since they are speaking English, they may well be served in using English convention, even if it hurts their ears.

But we can't be totally rigid. The English language, and any language for that matter, is dynamic. And if we can't adjust for cultural differences, it would be a dead language very soon. Chinglish is as real as Creole or Gaelic.

A hundred years ago, who would have thought that the title Ms. would be as prevalent as it is today. A hundred years from now, teacher Wong might very well be a common phrase.


--lotus

[CP]

Lotus, you wrote: "A hundred years ago, who would have thought that the title Ms. would be as prevalent as it is today. A hundred years from now, teacher Wong might very well be a common phrase."

In fact, in the U.S. 100-150 years ago, Ms. was quite commonly used to address women. Only young teenagers would be certain to be Miss, since they probably were not married until at least 16 or 17. After that, in a developing country without all the niceties of Europe, it could be hard to tell. So Ms. took the place of Ms. / Mrs.

When Ms. Magazine was created, Ms. Gloria Steinem was just reverting to an American tradition, but by then, rather than being a sort of slurred alternative to Miss or Mrs., Ms. gained its own ground as a title that did not give away the woman's marital status . . . just a small step away from the notion of wife as property of the husband.

Teacher Smith rather than Miss Smith would never be heard in the U.S. It was Miss Smith and yes, Ma'am and no Ma'am. A student who raised his hand and said, "Teacher, Teacher, I know" would be corrected to say the teacher's proper name.

A hundred years from now, as you said, things might be different.
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[gloria_taipei]

Thank you all for the feedback.

I've always thought that it's strange to say Teacher Nina as well, but students would do the translation themselves after they've learned the meaning of "teacher" and say "Nina teacher." Then I'd correct them and ask them to say "Teacher Nina" since I thought that's the right sequence.

Anyways, I'm willing to comform to the English conventions by using Miss/Mr./Mrs./Ms., and I'll talk the students and the other teachers into believing that Miss/Mr./Mrs./Ms. still show proper respect for teachers (even though the Chinese translation leads me to think they are often used among peer, acquaintances or strangers.)

That raises another question. Chinese surnames are much fewer than Chinese given names. If we say Miss Li, there might be many Miss Li's at the same school. Is it acceptable in English to say Miss Nina when addressing the teacher?

____________

To CP,
Thank you for the variations. You mentioned those because "Stand up, please." and "Sit down, please" are not commonly used nowadays?

[CP]

"To CP,
Thank you for the variations. You mentioned those because "Stand up, please." and "Sit down, please" are not commonly used nowadays?"

Not that, but you are writing more dialogues, no?
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[gloria_taipei]

[lotus]

Thank you for the bit of history CP. I stand corrected.

The point I was trying to make was the flexibility of the language. Ms. is used mainly in this day and age in the politically correct business environment. More so than previously in the past.

Let's take a few examples of language flexibility. I've never been addressed as Lotus-san until I joined this forum. I don't think of it as incorrect. I think of it as a nice acknowledgement (humbly of course).

In almost every martial arts studio in the United States, the teacher/master is addressed as "sensei", even if you speak not a word of Japanese or Chinese. Thirty years ago, they were invariably addressed as "master."

I'm not sure how old the expressions "kitsch" and "camp" are, but I'll bet that their use is more prevalent now that entertainment media is more readily available to everyone.

There are many other examples of the dynamics and fluidity of the English language. I'm not saying that children should not address their teachers as Miss Agnes. In fact, that is how it's done in the United States. Miss Gloria is not in the United States, however. She lives in a culture of her own. Even I don't know what that culture is. She is attempting to teach children English - yet respect the way the teachers are addressed in her culture. English is flexible enough for her to use it as she sees best. We can make suggestions and let her know what the conventions are. But, we can't dictate her use of our language in her culture.

I think many people will be very surprised at how English is turned around in various cultures. It is very normal usage of the language for them. We may think of it as bad grammar or bad usage. They think of it as linguistic adjustment. These adjustments may just become common usage, as we have seen.


--lotus

[gloria_taipei]

Hi, Lotus,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I've thought the same way before that English should be flexible and can be adapted to other cultures. I'm glad to know that there's someone here who understands why we use "Teacher Nina" instead of "Miss Wong."

However, not many people understand Chinese culture. Whenever a native speaker reads that and asks the same question, we have to explain ourselves; meanwhile, they usually do not agree whatsoever.

So, I've begun to think that it's OK to teach English in its own way. It'll be necessary to explain the background to the students just like when we teach them to say "Teacher Gloria" we explain that native speakers don't say that.

Anyways, here's another question. If I change "Teacher Gloria" to "Miss Gloria", is that acceptable? If I remember correctly, people in the South addresses people like that.

[flying_pig319]